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Author Topic: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality  (Read 16478 times)

Sky Miller

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Hello everyone.
I am building a PA setup for a traveling drum soloist (me). I already have a few amps, some speakers, and I can't spend any more money. I want to get the highest dB level, and very best sound quality from the gear that I have now. Most of the concerts will be outdoors in the beginning, but there are also some dates planned in the future this year for some inside trade shows. My plans for the future (next year) will be to duplicate the same speaker array I have now, and add amps (more crown amps) to accomedate.

I'm not really sure I should be asking this question here, or not, but here goes:

At the present time, I have 6 speaker cabinets, each housing its own dedicated speaker, and another 2 enclosures, each housing its own horn. My typical setup is 3 stacked speakers on each side of the stage, with the horns up top, the subs on the bottom and the main woofers between.

I don't use a passive crossover; I use the built-in crossovers/filters in my Crown DriveCore XLS amps. My XLS 2500 is used for the subs in bridged mono mode, and the other two amps are DriveCore XLS 1000, which are also run in bridge mono mode. Each one dedicated toward pushing one of the woofers.

Now, I already know there are going to be people who are compelled to answer this post with the comment: "tune it to what you think sounds best."  My response to that is, "I will." My reason for posting this is to find out if I am thinking and going about this the right way. If I should be considering something else, I want to know. My settings are based upon what is on paper for now. I suppose I want to go through this in my head first and get some pro's opinions, to be sure I understand the concepts. So you will be looking at the same data I did when I came to my determination of settings.

So until I do my adjustments by ear, I want to hear, from professionals, what general setting they would start with in separating the frequencies, and why. I am exclusively using the Response Curves and other attached data for my choices below.

Speakers:
Here's what I have on each side:
The subs are Eminence Omega Pro 18A= 40Hz to 800Hz 800W RMS 8 ohms each
The Woofers are Eminence Kappa Pro 15A= 46Hz to 4K
500W RMS 8 ohms each
The HF drivers are Peavey RX22= 500Hz to 15KHz

These are my Settings:
Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro
 For the RX22 and the Ampeg B2RE amp, I'll cut all frequencies down 12dB except 2K and above, I'll boost. Turn all knobs down (like mid-bass, etc) for the RX22 I hate this setup, but what else can I do except spend more money.

Amplifiers:
The (2) XLS 1000 bridged at 8ohms- 700 watts each
The XLS 2500 bridged at 4 ohms gives me 2400 watts
Don't laugh, but I'm a poor musician. This is all I have
To power the Peavey RX22 HF Compressors, I will be using an Ampeg B2RE amp and will be using the EQ and every other means incorporated in the unit to cut out the lows.

If anyone has other suggestions for me to consider, please feel free to make it known, but I would like to get my questions answered. I already know: sell the Ampeg and get another XLS 1000. (in the process)

*As far as using the DSP features of the DriveCore Series, I didn't find data about the dB curve at the lowpass and highpass filter settings, but am almost positive that whichever setting is choosen, it will not be an absolute drop-off, or will it be; anyone know?

I don't know what the protocol is here. I could just cut and create .jpg files of all the pertinent stuff and attach, or just provide links and keep myself out of trouble. I'd like to make it easier for readers, but legalities are considered. So you'll have to do some scrolling.

Specs for Omega Pro 18A
http://www.usspeaker.com/OmegaPro-18A-1.htm

Specs for Kappa Pro 15A
http://www.usspeaker.com/KappaPro-15A-1.htm

Specs for Peavey RX22 HF Driver
http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/726/94835/RX%26trade%3B22HFDriver

Manual for XLS DriveCore Series Amps (click on Operation Manual) *pdf format
http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

Cut sheet for Ampeg B2RE amp.
http://www.ampeg.com/products/b/b2re/
* The Users Guide can be downloaded as a .pdf at the bottom of the page
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Ray Aberle

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So are these home-built speakers?
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Kelcema Audio
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Sky Miller

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So are these home-built speakers?
Yes. Built to tuning specs.
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Ray Aberle

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Yes. Built to tuning specs.
Well, I know that this isn't what you are going to want to hear, especially after reading through your previous threads------

but until someone has taken your "home-made" speakers, and run a trace using SMAART or an equivalent, there's no way anyone is going to know what the response of your boxes is, and can't even begin to determine what crossover points would be used.

So my suggestion, if you want some input from people on here, would be to get some measurements so you can give more information as to what the speakers are actually doing.

So are you going "about this in the right way?" As Ivan would say, "It depends." I'd say that without any measurements to find out what's really going on, you are not.
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Kelcema Audio
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Sky Miller

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So are these home-built speakers?
You are absolutely correct!
That is not what I expected. And I can always, ALWAYS count on never getting an answer to anything when I come here for help. Seems most people want to stick their chest out and basically say, " You stupid idiot. This is really technical stuff we have going on here. We need to know what temperature is is outside and the relative humidity. We can't answer that stupid question. What kind of screws did you use on your enclosures? Did you wipe off your speakers before you installed them? Oh . . . You will dance around the question and tell me how difficult it is to answer, because you are sooo smart and my question is so stupid. Why don't you just read the stinking question and give your best answer. IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT!

This is really technical stuff here buddy. You just can't come in here and ask a simple question. All of us here are so far beyond your infant mind, that you really don't belong here.

Well, ya know? That's exactly how I feel. Some nice, warm, hearty welcome for a newcomer that I certainly DIDN'T receive here. So, you checked out my other posts, heh? One person. ONE PERSON gave me a courteous answer. He knew what I was after and gave his best shot in explaining something to me. I wrote that guy back, but never sent it. I regret that now, because he was NOT like the others I have come in contact with so far on this site. What a bunch of self-important, useless stuffed shirts.

If anyone else out there reading this has something WORTHWHILE that they want to contribute feel free. I certainly would appreciate it. You would be doing me a great favor, and you  would be restoring my faith in humanity, and this forum too.
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duane massey

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Unless I misread the manual, the XLS series only allows you to have either a hi-pass or a low-pass filter, but not both. This is not acceptable for anyone trying to do a three-way system with vented boxes (or any other boxes). You need a processor, even something as basic as a Driverack PA. Unless you can do this you will never achieve anything worthwhile with your set-up.
This has nothing to do with DIY cabinets (which could be great, or not), but simply the truth. IF you had a crossover/processor, I would suggest starting with crossover points at 90hz and 2k, but (as Ray said) there is no way to know what settings you really need. If you had more experience and knowledge you could make the adjustments by ear (trial and error), and you may still be able to do this, but not without a processor and the basic skills to set it up. A used DRPA can be found on eBay for under $200.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Steve M Smith

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Now, I already know there are going to be people who are compelled to answer this post with the comment: "tune it to what you think sounds best."  My response to that is, "I will"

In the absence of any suitable measuring equipment, this is all you can do really.

Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro

It's difficult to tell without knowing your cabinet designs, but 630Hz is very high for a sub.

Personally, I'm a fan of people building their own speakers.  Have you got any details we can see?


Steve.
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Sky Miller

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In the absence of any suitable measuring equipment, this is all you can do really.
This exercise is about working with what you have. And all you have is what is on paper.

It's difficult to tell without knowing your cabinet designs, but 630Hz is very high for a sub.
Don't get hung up about cabinet designs. This is about the "speaker's" response curve; whhat is on paper. The question is about setting crossover points "accordin g to the response curves of each transducer" to reproduce original sounds; period!

Personally, I'm a fan of people building their own speakers.  Have you got any details we can see?
I am so happy to hear something positive come from someone. This is a forum of doom and gloom.


Steve.
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Ivan Beaver

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Not to sound evasive-but as others have said-there is no way of knowing without knowing more information about the cabinets.

Since you "designed" the cabinets-then you should know what the design specs are and whether or not you achieved those specs.

Having some actual measurements (acoustical-not how big the cabinets are) would go a long way.

But unless detailed measurements are provided (including phase response) there is no way to give anything more than a guess as to the parameters needed.

The reason people are hesitant to give suggestions is that they simply don't have enough information to guess with.

Think of it like this-you have asked a question like this.

"Me and some friends of mine are going to a festival in a 15 passenger van.  How much will it cost us to get in?"

Without knowing exactly how many people and what the cost of the tickets are-there is no way to guess.

We could "assume there are a total of 15 people-but there may be only 4 people or 20. 

I know you want a simple answer-but to get a real answer you have to have some real tools to do the processing and real measurements to BEGIN to get some good starting points.

Any answer somebody would give you have lots of other people saying they are wrong.  And EVERYBODY would be right-without more information.

Since you say you are going to adjust it to be right-then go ahead and do it.  And how do you determine what is "right"?
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Sky Miller

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Well, I know that this isn't what you are going to want to hear, especially after reading through your previous threads------
Ho-hum. Then why bother. My suggestion to you is to spend more time imparting knowledge upon somebody else and less time trying to come across so knowledgable. Sounded to me like the question was too elementary for you to stoop so low to answer. Anybody can do that! It doesn't matter whether anything is "what" I want to hear or not; just pass on some knowledge.

but until someone has taken your "home-made" speakers, and run a trace using SMAART or an equivalent, there's no way anyone is going to know what the response of your boxes is, and can't even begin to determine what crossover points would be used.
Forget my "homemade" speakers. Use the information given, unless you are incapable. In that case, keep your inadequacies to yourself. Don't shift the blame on the one answering the question.

So my suggestion, if you want some input from people on here, would be to get some measurements so you can give more information as to what the speakers are actually doing.
So you have taken it upon yourself to answer for everybody? Thanks for your suggestion, but here again proves that you have completely missed the point. Answer the question, as it is given- then we can discuss all the other factors involved.

So are you going "about this in the right way?" As Ivan would say, "It depends." I'd say that without any measurements to find out what's really going on, you are not.
Well, you got out of answering another one! You came, you said absolutely nothing, then you left; typical.
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