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Author Topic: New to live sound. Need help setting up.  (Read 17002 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 10:30:25 AM »

Wow.  Thank you all for your help and support.  I do want to apologize for saying "it shouldn't be that difficult".  What I meant by that was the physical hooking everything up.  Not the skill required to master it.  I know that many of you are highly gifted and skilled at doing love sound.  I hope one day I can be on the same level.  But for right now, I just need to get it hooked up.  haha

Bill McIntosh-Thank you for the offer.  I live in Campbellsville.  45 minutes south of Elizabethtown.  I'm going to take a look at Bill Schnake's diagram that he is making for me.  If I need some additional help, I will definitely contact you.

Bill Schnake-Thank you! That sounds awesome.  That is exactly what I need hopefully.

Isaac-

Simply put, *outputs* feed *inputs*.  The output of your mouth feeds the input of a microphone (acoustic connection); the output of the mic feeds an input to your mixer; the output of the mixer feeds (at the simplest) the input of a powered speaker; the output of the speaker feeds the input to your ear (acoustic connection).  All of the cables in between are simply means of making those connections; a snake is just a really long, multi-cord mic cable extension.

If you can either draw a picture (like the ones Behringer and other manufacturers put in the owners manuals) or do it in your head, but if you think in these terms you'll have a better grasp of what is really going on.

I *strongly suggest* that you read the manuals and experiment with the hook up.  Bring things up "low and slow" to avoid a big blast of feedback.  Begin with the simplest implementations, ignoring the equipment that does not conform to the diagram.  Keep it simple until you understand the concepts and can repeatedly get sound (not just noise) out of whatever you're hooking up, i.e. mixer to power amp to SP4.  Once you grok that concept, add in the 31 band EQ and experiment with it, listen to what it does when you move the sliders, and use music, your voice, and pink noise as the sources.  Add in another amp and the monitors, and hook those up to your mixer.  Make them work, and understand what you did to accomplish that.

Really.  Dive in, use both feet.  You'll never gain a true understanding of what's going on if all you accomplish is knowing how to put "tab A into slot B".
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sam saponaro

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 01:59:04 PM »

for times when you have a performance like the "Drama team"
Hey..........how did my bandmates get brought into this. ;D
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Bill McIntosh

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 11:09:46 PM »

Wow.  Thank you all for your help and support.  I do want to apologize for saying "it shouldn't be that difficult".  What I meant by that was the physical hooking everything up.  Not the skill required to master it.  I know that many of you are highly gifted and skilled at doing love sound.  I hope one day I can be on the same level.  But for right now, I just need to get it hooked up.  haha

Bill McIntosh-Thank you for the offer.  I live in Campbellsville.  45 minutes south of Elizabethtown.  I'm going to take a look at Bill Schnake's diagram that he is making for me.  If I need some additional help, I will definitely contact you.

Bill Schnake-Thank you! That sounds awesome.  That is exactly what I need hopefully.

Just trying to pay something forward. The folks on this board have been invaluable. Check your e-mail, we may be able to connect.
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Isaac South

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 08:27:23 AM »

Isaac-

Simply put, *outputs* feed *inputs*.  The output of your mouth feeds the input of a microphone (acoustic connection); the output of the mic feeds an input to your mixer; the output of the mixer feeds (at the simplest) the input of a powered speaker; the output of the speaker feeds the input to your ear (acoustic connection).  All of the cables in between are simply means of making those connections; a snake is just a really long, multi-cord mic cable extension.

If you can either draw a picture (like the ones Behringer and other manufacturers put in the owners manuals) or do it in your head, but if you think in these terms you'll have a better grasp of what is really going on.

I *strongly suggest* that you read the manuals and experiment with the hook up.  Bring things up "low and slow" to avoid a big blast of feedback.  Begin with the simplest implementations, ignoring the equipment that does not conform to the diagram.  Keep it simple until you understand the concepts and can repeatedly get sound (not just noise) out of whatever you're hooking up, i.e. mixer to power amp to SP4.  Once you grok that concept, add in the 31 band EQ and experiment with it, listen to what it does when you move the sliders, and use music, your voice, and pink noise as the sources.  Add in another amp and the monitors, and hook those up to your mixer.  Make them work, and understand what you did to accomplish that.

Really.  Dive in, use both feet.  You'll never gain a true understanding of what's going on if all you accomplish is knowing how to put "tab A into slot B".

Tim,

Thank you.  This makes a lot of sense.  I think what gets me nervous is all of the extra gear like the compressor and the eq and the feedback suppressor and the crossover.  I like your idea of hooking it up without that at first.  Then incorporate those as I go along.  That sure sounds more manageable.  Thank you for that idea.
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Thomas Le

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 09:27:49 AM »

For starting out, take out the compressor, the feedback killer, and the crossover (you're running 2x15's so there's alot of bass and you have only one sub).

Add the compressor to two channels of choice as inserts (preferably two vocals or a drum buss) if you're ready to try it out. Add the crossover if you have another sub to the output chain.

Since your setup is simple, run your stereo mix directly to main FOH amps and use the internal GEQ on the mixer, leaving the outboard GEQ for the monitor mix.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:07:04 AM by Thomas Le »
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Cosmo

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 05:23:59 PM »


One of the first hurdles you will face is what to call the various connectors and how to use them.  You have probably already discovered XLR connectors, which are used to connect microphones to the mic inputs.  These same cables are also used to connect all sorts of gear to each other.  However, there is the cousin to the XLR and that is the good ol' 1/4 inch plug.  You will find that these come in two flavors, Tip/Sleeve (TS) and Tip/Ring/Sleeve (TRS).  I won't get into balanced vs. unbalanced here, but that is something you will want to read up on.  The TS quarter-inch is unbalanced and is what most guitar cables are terminated with.  They have their place in pro sound, but the much more common quarter-inch that you will run across is the TRS.  It is directly comparable to the XLR and gets adapted back and forth all the time.  One of the first adapter cables you will probably need is XLR-to-TRS, and both male and female XLRs will be needed.  These adapters can be in the form of a short cable or just the barrel type with XLR on one side and a TRS plug on the other.  Lots of single-rack-space equipment uses 1/4 inch jacks because they take up less real estate than XLR jacks.

With all that being said, one of the most confusing applications of a TRS plug is the unbalanced insert cable.  This is probably what you will wind up using to insert the compressor, for example, into a channel strip on the mixer.  This cable will have a TRS plug with two wires coming out of it, each terminating in a TS plug.  The TRS plug will go into the insert jack on the mixer and the two TS plugs will go into (and out of, respectively) the device being inserted.  They will be labeled SEND and RETURN and will go to the input and output of said device.

Lots to learn here, but keep at it.  It's loads of fun once you figure out the basics.
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Isaac South

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 10:56:52 AM »

One of the first hurdles you will face is what to call the various connectors and how to use them.  You have probably already discovered XLR connectors, which are used to connect microphones to the mic inputs.  These same cables are also used to connect all sorts of gear to each other.  However, there is the cousin to the XLR and that is the good ol' 1/4 inch plug.  You will find that these come in two flavors, Tip/Sleeve (TS) and Tip/Ring/Sleeve (TRS).  I won't get into balanced vs. unbalanced here, but that is something you will want to read up on.  The TS quarter-inch is unbalanced and is what most guitar cables are terminated with.  They have their place in pro sound, but the much more common quarter-inch that you will run across is the TRS.  It is directly comparable to the XLR and gets adapted back and forth all the time.  One of the first adapter cables you will probably need is XLR-to-TRS, and both male and female XLRs will be needed.  These adapters can be in the form of a short cable or just the barrel type with XLR on one side and a TRS plug on the other.  Lots of single-rack-space equipment uses 1/4 inch jacks because they take up less real estate than XLR jacks.

With all that being said, one of the most confusing applications of a TRS plug is the unbalanced insert cable.  This is probably what you will wind up using to insert the compressor, for example, into a channel strip on the mixer.  This cable will have a TRS plug with two wires coming out of it, each terminating in a TS plug.  The TRS plug will go into the insert jack on the mixer and the two TS plugs will go into (and out of, respectively) the device being inserted.  They will be labeled SEND and RETURN and will go to the input and output of said device.

Lots to learn here, but keep at it.  It's loads of fun once you figure out the basics.

Cosmo,

Thank you for the info about the cables.  It's funny you posted this, because I was just sitting here wondering about all the cables I have.  I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

Thank you.
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Josh Millward

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 11:35:04 AM »

Cosmo,

Thank you for the info about the cables.  It's funny you posted this, because I was just sitting here wondering about all the cables I have.  I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Hi Isaac!

If you are interfacing two piece of equipment together, like the output of your mixer and the input of your amplifier, you will not damage anything by using a TS cable in place of a TRS cable. There is the whole balanced signal versus unbalanced signal issue that we will not worry about right now in the interest of getting you up and going, but you will not damage anything.

The only way you could possibly damage something would be if you were to take the output from your amplifier (which is intended to go to a loudspeaker as it is considerably higher voltage and higher current) and run it into an input of anything that is not a loudspeaker. So, just do not do that. You can not take the output of one amplifier and feed it into another amplifier and expect it to be any louder, so do not do that either.

Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

Quality cables do not have to be absurdly expensive, they just need to be built with good quality parts. Cheap connectors and cheap cable make for garbage products. I would encourage you to try to always buy cables with real Neutrik and Switchcraft connectors.

Also, loudspeaker cable... bigger is always better. Always. However, there is a practical limit to how big you want it to be. I know there are some guys on these forums that use 10AWG cable for their subs, but I have tried to standardize my loudspeaker cable collection on 12AWG 4 conductor cable with real Neutrik NL-4 connectors. To me, it seems that generally 12AWG cable is a good compromise between size, weight, and functionality. I would also highly recommend trying to never use 1/4 TS cables for loudspeaker lines, if at all possible. All amplifiers and loudspeakers should be outfitted with NL-4 connectors and all cables should use them, too.

Thank you.

We thank you for trying to learn. This seems to be in short supply these days and it is nice to see someone with a desire to learn something new.

I like to do this sound thing because it is fun! Hopefully you will find the fun in it too.
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Josh Millward
Danley Sound Labs

Ray Aberle

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 11:56:11 AM »


Also, I know my speakon cables are cheap.  They were purchased on amazon and we were going for price, not performance.  Is this bad?  Will these damage my system?  Should I replace them and if so, how do I know I'm getting a good cable?  They are really expensive, but I guess that's better than damaging something.

One source for good, decent quality cables is Audiopile, at http://www.audiopile.net. They're located here in Washington state, but they ship anywhere in the US. Along with a good number of people on here, I get most of my speaker and XLR/1/4" cables from them. Genuine Neutrik cable ends, of course, and they will custom make anything you need.

Check your current Speakon cables-- if they're labeled as Neutrik or Switchcraft, and at least 14-13 gauge, you're probably OK. Learn how to disassemble/re-assemble them, and how the cable connects on the inside, as having a basic knowledge of cable maintenance is really important.

-Ray
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Cosmo

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Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 05:00:32 PM »


I have quite of few ranging from 1/4" to 1/4", xlr to xlr, speakon to 1/4", speakon to speakon, and more.  However, I have no idea if the 1/4" cables are TS or TRS.  I've done some googling and I think I can figure it out.  But if I use one that's not TRS, will it damage my gear?

Just look at the plug.  If you see the tip, then a thin line (insulator), then the rest of the sleeve, it is a TS.  If you see the tip, then a thin line, then a short part of the sleeve (the "ring"), then another thin line, then the rest of the sleeve, it is a TRS (three conductors).  Unscrew the barrel on any 1/4-inch plug and you will see the wires soldered to the terminals.

As you get deeper into this hobby/career, you will discover that the three conductors in an XLR cable correspond to the three conductors in a TRS plug.  In an XLR, the conductors are numbered (look closely at the end with a flashlight).  Pin 2 usually carries the positive part of the signal (also called Pin 2 Hot), pin 3 is negative (cold), and pin 1 will be the shield (the outer wrapping around the center two wires, either braided wire or foil, or both).

On a TRS plug, the tip is usually hot, the ring cold, and the sleeve is the shield conductor.  To make your own adapter cables, just take a chunk of mic cable and solder one of each type on the ends.  Remember, this is for a balanced cable.  On a TS plug, the tip is still usually the positive signal and the sleeve carries the negative.  There is no shield.  As Josh mentioned, you will not hurt anything using TS connectors, but without the shield you are susceptible to picking up unwanted noise in the cable from outside sources, such as radio waves or electromagnetic fields.  This will show up as a hum or buzz in the PA.  Three-conductor (balanced) cables will usually avoid this because the shield will "protect" the inner two wires.

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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.  Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away.  - H.D. Thoreau

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New to live sound. Need help setting up.
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 05:00:32 PM »


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