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Author Topic: The Brand does Matter  (Read 31591 times)

Ray Aberle

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Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2014, 11:28:33 AM »

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).

... as I go and Google the Egyptian Theatre in Boise, see who they have coming up, and find one performance on July 8th that looks like it fits the bill as to whom Tim refers to...

If I recall correctly, Rocky Mountain AV is there in Boise, Jason- Harman house, VT4889s and 88s, I believe. If you're doing the hiring decision, that is. Haha. Otherwise CPS out of Kennewick is your next closest source for 88s. Ford Audio has EV boxes. And then in the Portland market, besides myself with 88s there's another EV rig, plus sounds like they bought a V25 rig this year, but that'd be overkill for 800 people.

-Ray
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David Parker

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Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 11:48:49 AM »

I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.
yup. if you went into a restaurant and ordered fried eggs and they substituted scrambled, you wouldn't accept it. The customer has the right to specify anything they want. They also have the option of cancelling the gig if they don't get what they want.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 12:12:38 PM »

<snip>
Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 
<snip>

I am sorry I have to disagree with you. I was at a concert and spoke to the soundman and asked why he wasn’t using a digital console. He basically said that he isn’t able to get the same digital console all the time and the differences between them makes it too hard to be as quick as he needs to be.

I use a digital console when I do musicals and I have my preferences. I have wanted the cheaper ones to work for me but after spending a lot of time looking into their capabilities and restrictions I have had to rule out most of them.

Here is a picture of my setup with my preferred console at the moment. If I am able to figure out how to attach a picture.

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frank kayser

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Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2014, 12:40:56 PM »

Whoa there, Frank.

We're playing outside the Lounge sandbox here.  On my desk right now I've got an artist rider that is very specific, and if it's not met, they take the promoter's money and get back on the bus...

At some level, a rider is either the exact specification for locally sourced production, or it's a negotiating tool.  Which of either is mostly a matter of who wrote it and their style of communicating.  I can tell you that Celtic Woman Christmas WILL get the exact mic package (absolutely no substitutions) and lighting they put on the rider, or there will not be a show; ditto for Pat Benatar.  Asleep at the Wheel's FOH/PM got so tired of "negotiating" mics and consoles that they now carry their own, but they have very specific requirements for the locally provided, on-line (and patched) backup desk.

Above the Lounge level (where a BE is usually thrilled to get a 100% working snake & console), there isn't a lot of compromise - the TM hires the PM who hires the technicians he/she knows will provide the needed level of services to the artist, and those technicians determine how best to provide those services.  A good PM will immediately challenge things that would make it difficult for a local presenter/promoter to have a reasonable expectation of making a profit on a 75% house.  "Really need 6 Avalon preamp/DIs?  Then we'll rent them for the tour because most regional providers don't stock more than a couple of those (or any), and the expense of having them rented and flown in/out will make a $500-$750 hit to the promoter, which may make him/her rethink contracting our show."  Some PMs don't care, though, and that's when the friction starts over "negotiations."

At the Lounge level, I've gotten riders that looked like they came from an international artist accustomed to playing stadia and arenas.... and those we get on the phone and say "you're playing a 1200 seat theater with a gross potential of $xxxxx; and the promoter needs the sound/lights/whatever package to cost less than gross."  If the FOH person doesn't bend, we move up the food chain until either an accommodation is made or the promoter simply bails on the show.  I've seen more than 1 PM or FOH guy get fired by artist management because the technical rider made it impossible for management to sell shows to promoters.

Ultimately this is about money, and most artists, especially at the lower levels, will accept less than what is on their rider because the artist needs to sell their merchandise to make a profit, and no show means no merch sales.  That doesn't mean the rider is a wish list, but it does mean that whoever wrote it should be more cognizant of where the artist's income actually comes from.

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).


Tim,
My apologies to you and Jason for some rather flippant language, and overall lack of respect.  Sometimes I open my mouth just to change feet... hope this won't be another of those times...


My  excuse (no defense) is after reading http://www.iggypop.org/stoogesrider.html and remembering some ranting here about some riders having never been updated and still "requiring" some 20yr old equipment - or...


I do realize that most riders are thoughtfully considered and well executed and need to be properly respected, as a function of what we do (provide services for a price).  With no disrespect to the artist, they are secondary to the contractual requirements. What we (via the contract) promised the artist (large or small) is most important. 
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Russ Davis

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The Layout Does Matter
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2014, 01:08:36 PM »

I was at a concert and spoke to the soundman and asked why he wasn’t using a digital console. He basically said that he isn’t able to get the same digital console all the time and the differences between them makes it too hard to be as quick as he needs to be.

I hope you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:34:33 PM by Russ Davis »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: The Layout Does Matter
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2014, 01:14:38 PM »

I hoped you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.

Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: The Layout Does Matter
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2014, 01:43:36 PM »

I hope you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.

He was using a Yamaha PM5000 and it is a huge console. It made for a very tight mix position. We were talking about other things and the console question came up. He was doing a very good job with a very good band.

I haven’t found a digital console other then the one in the picture I attached and its big brother that I sometimes use that will do what I want as quickly as I want. There are a few things that I wished it would do but I have workarounds for those things. This is for musicals.

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brian maddox

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Re: The Layout Does Matter
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2014, 02:05:26 PM »

Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.

just got hired to di a corporate award show thingy.  i was offered choice of SC48, Profile, or M7.  i chose M7 basically because it's the devil i know very very well.  I'm sure most would have made a very different choice, but for various reasons i've spent very little time in front of any of the Avid products.  so there you have it.
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Steve Oldridge

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Re: The Layout Does Matter
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2014, 02:06:40 PM »

Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.

I'm no pro (don't make my living doing it) but have looked at all of the small format digital consoles - both before I bought my Presonus 16.4.2 a couple of yrs ago, and recently as my current band (who doesn't want FREE use of my 16.4.2) is looking to upgrade to digital and move to all IEM's. I went with the Presonus because is was closest to the analog flow I was used to - at the time.  They basically need 6 AUX's to feed IEM mixes and L/R out.

The challenge for me was that ALL the small format digital's have different workflows, implementations, user interfaces, etc. but ALL essentially do the same as an analog console. I've comfortable walking up to an analog console and mixing. Can't say the same for digital as the UI (User Interface) and workflow variances are so divergent between the X32, QU16, Presonus, Si and DL1608 offerings that it's not a grab-and-go thing like analog would be.

If [today] I were a "weekend warrior" looking to move from analog, it would be a bewildering array of choices, and essentially boil down to personal choice of UI and workflow acceptance - assuming I/O capability and other features don't override.  Based on my research and feedback on this forum, my band guys are planning to go with the X32 Producer - as they mix from stage and want that "fader" available. 
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Dan Richardson

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Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM »

Maybe VRX can sound good in one spot in the room, but it is inconsistent horizontally.

Yup. The woofer is crossed to the horns too high, so it's beamy. Walk your SMAART mics across the coverage and you get a different plot everywhere you plant them.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM »


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