ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Down

Author Topic: The Brand does Matter  (Read 31597 times)

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3455
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2014, 02:14:39 PM »

In the wrong hands they can sound pretty bad.

And maybe that's just his point-- he's experienced enough poorly deployed (or processed... or powered...) VRX systems that he'd rather not take the chance on them again. Or someone who, upon being asked for a "line array," provided that, and it wasn't anywhere close to enough Rig For The Gig. Now, if you advance it right, as others have pointed out, and if he gains the confidence that you know what you're doing and it's the right Rig For The Gig, perhaps he'd accept it.

As Ivan would say, "It Depends."

-Ray "has a dozen boxes of VRX" Aberle
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6037
  • Central North Carolina
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2014, 02:21:20 PM »

Had my  'just out of warranty' mixwiz headphone output go bad last year. Still loved it though as it was the second one I had owned and the first was a workhorse for me. Got it repaired and sold it for the QU16 which I love more. I am small local shows though - nothing big.....
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Jamin Lynch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1999
  • Corpus Christi, TX.
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2014, 02:22:11 PM »

And maybe that's just his point-- he's experienced enough poorly deployed (or processed... or powered...) VRX systems that he'd rather not take the chance on them again. Or someone who, upon being asked for a "line array," provided that, and it wasn't anywhere close to enough Rig For The Gig. Now, if you advance it right, as others have pointed out, and if he gains the confidence that you know what you're doing and it's the right Rig For The Gig, perhaps he'd accept it.

As Ivan would say, "It Depends."

-Ray "has a dozen boxes of VRX" Aberle

Agreed

It's like most of the items mentioned. Somebody had a bad experience with perfectly good equipment and now it's off the list completely most likely due to owner error. 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 02:25:25 PM by Jamin Lynch »
Logged

Steve Hurt

  • Lab Lounge
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 10:54:27 PM »

A place I work occasionally had a rider come in with "No Soundcraft" on it recently.
They have a GB 32 and I have a Performer 2!

People want what they want.



Not really Steve. Plenty of acts in this area won't use A&H for all the reasons mentioned. I opened for an "A" level act at a club that had a Soundcraft board for FOH, a full EAW system, and a Mixwiz to stage left for monitors. They absolutely refused to use the Mixwiz and ended up talking me into using my APB Pro House in it's place. No more issues.
 
I've never been a fan of A&H, and they don't, as already mentioned really compete at the at the "A" level with their best boards. My Soundcraft is used on stage as part of my small >1500 people system. For larger clubs or events I rely on the house system, or hire out, pushing my on stage backiline mix to FOH.
 
I also see where someone mentioned "no SRX". This I have never seen, and often see SRX monitors or other SRX cabinets used for sidefills, etc. along with some pretty large JBL arrays working hard for a good number of touring acts.
Logged

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1654
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:22 AM »

I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.



Logged

Jason Raboin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 373
    • Klondike Sound
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2014, 10:12:40 AM »

When I first posted I didn't realize this was the lounge.  The rider I'm talking about is not lounge level.  Maybe VRX can sound good in one spot in the room, but it is inconsistent horizontally.  We have a show coming up at the Egyptian in Boise.  They have VRX installed and they will have to bring something else in for me.
Logged
Jason Raboin
Partner
Klondike Sound

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23736
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2014, 10:47:52 AM »

I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.

Whoa there, Frank.

We're playing outside the Lounge sandbox here.  On my desk right now I've got an artist rider that is very specific, and if it's not met, they take the promoter's money and get back on the bus...

At some level, a rider is either the exact specification for locally sourced production, or it's a negotiating tool.  Which of either is mostly a matter of who wrote it and their style of communicating.  I can tell you that Celtic Woman Christmas WILL get the exact mic package (absolutely no substitutions) and lighting they put on the rider, or there will not be a show; ditto for Pat Benatar.  Asleep at the Wheel's FOH/PM got so tired of "negotiating" mics and consoles that they now carry their own, but they have very specific requirements for the locally provided, on-line (and patched) backup desk.

Above the Lounge level (where a BE is usually thrilled to get a 100% working snake & console), there isn't a lot of compromise - the TM hires the PM who hires the technicians he/she knows will provide the needed level of services to the artist, and those technicians determine how best to provide those services.  A good PM will immediately challenge things that would make it difficult for a local presenter/promoter to have a reasonable expectation of making a profit on a 75% house.  "Really need 6 Avalon preamp/DIs?  Then we'll rent them for the tour because most regional providers don't stock more than a couple of those (or any), and the expense of having them rented and flown in/out will make a $500-$750 hit to the promoter, which may make him/her rethink contracting our show."  Some PMs don't care, though, and that's when the friction starts over "negotiations."

At the Lounge level, I've gotten riders that looked like they came from an international artist accustomed to playing stadia and arenas.... and those we get on the phone and say "you're playing a 1200 seat theater with a gross potential of $xxxxx; and the promoter needs the sound/lights/whatever package to cost less than gross."  If the FOH person doesn't bend, we move up the food chain until either an accommodation is made or the promoter simply bails on the show.  I've seen more than 1 PM or FOH guy get fired by artist management because the technical rider made it impossible for management to sell shows to promoters.

Ultimately this is about money, and most artists, especially at the lower levels, will accept less than what is on their rider because the artist needs to sell their merchandise to make a profit, and no show means no merch sales.  That doesn't mean the rider is a wish list, but it does mean that whoever wrote it should be more cognizant of where the artist's income actually comes from.

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Jamin Lynch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1999
  • Corpus Christi, TX.
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2014, 11:12:51 AM »

This is the Lounge isn't it?  ;D

At my level almost every rider I receive is used ONLY to get the phone number of the bands tech person so I can call to say "There's no way anybody around here can meet this rider. I have XYZ available, is that OK?" 99% of the time they say OK.

The rider then goes in the trash.

Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23736
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 11:14:26 AM »

This is the Lounge isn't it?  ;D

At my level almost every rider I receive is used ONLY to get the phone number of the bands tech person so I can call to say "There's no way anybody around here can meet this rider. I have XYZ available, is that OK?" 99% of the time they say OK.

The rider then goes in the trash.
You get correct phone numbers from a rider?  You're one lucky guy!
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Jamin Lynch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1999
  • Corpus Christi, TX.
Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 11:19:12 AM »

You get correct phone numbers from a rider?  You're one lucky guy!

Usually can find a number from Facebook or the band's website.  I keep trying till I get somebody who can steer me in the right direction.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: The Brand does Matter
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 11:19:12 AM »


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.038 seconds with 24 queries.