ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM  (Read 2018 times)

Derrick McDonald

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« on: May 03, 2014, 01:40:48 pm »

Hey all,

I've got a couple of these DI's that I'm trying out this summer, used one recently and liked it.  For those of you who are in ear pro's....

Guitar player liked that he had a consistent tone (no mic moving around, etc.) and could consistently hear his notes.  Would you pan the DI to their dominant side on stage and add a condenser to their weak side (hard panned) to create more room in the center for vocals?

If so, would the inherent delay help add to the space much like multing a mono source and adding 33ms of delay in the studio OR is it better to time align them for a fuller sound?

Amps and Cabs are Mesa Dual Rect's, tone is full on distorted rock rhythm guitar, IEM are sennheiser ew300 G2's with UE7's (main vocal/guitar has UE11's), Main Vocal Mic is Sennheiser 2000 with Tele kk205 capsule (backups are hardwired e935), stage size range from large outdoor festival stage to medium size festival stage, not using ambience mics.

Artist prefers to not use audience mics, would a touch of a short reverb help add a little extra space around the guitar?

Thanks

Logged

Luke Geis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 01:18:20 am »

As a guitarist myself I can say I would probably cringe at the DI sound of any guitar. I suppose with a good speaker emulator I could be convinced? The whole ambiance thing doesn't work too well on large stages if only using a pair of ambient mics. Yes it adds ambiance, but there is usually a time delay that can be too distant. You will notice that on many large stages where IEM's are used there are usually ambient mics at each musicians position. These mics can then be added into each mix as needed.

That being said if he is not a fan of ambient mics anyway, adding a small amount of verb can help add feel? Too much though and notes can get lost. To me getting a good DI sound from the preamp out of a guitar amp is just not worth the effort. However if he is happy with it, then adding a small amount of verb should help add some depth. A mono ear mix will tend to have a dry and less than stellar sound to it though. Panning things around would be ideal if you have stereo ears. A good IEM mix should sound pretty much like your favorite band through headphones. It takes a bit of work though as with wireless you don't always have a lot of dynamic range to work with. one hot signal is all it takes to compress the mix down. That as the case that also means that you need to be able to feed a stereo verb to the mix. This may not always be the case at every gig?
Logged
I don't understand how you can't hear your self

Chris Johnson [UK]

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 368
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 06:22:19 am »

You will notice that on many large stages where IEM's are used there are usually ambient mics at each musicians position. These mics can then be added into each mix as needed.

I spend my life on large stages and have literally never actually seen this. I hear it talked about on forums, but have yet to see it used in real life.

Partly I think its because it depends on what you want from ambience. If you want crowd, downstage mics work great. If you want the sound of the musos around you, then not so much. However, I find that adding appropriate reverb to stage sources and having full mixes in the IEMs is a much better way to achieve this than simply putting lots more noise into the ears via local ambience mics.

Anyway, on the guitar thing, I generally avoid DIs and go for well secured mics that don't move. The amp/speaker combo is a big part of the sound. Taping a square on the amp grill works wonders for getting the right positioning every time.

Generally I give musicians a flat EQ on their instruments on the basis that they need to be aware of what they really sound like, without polish. That way they spend more time working on their sounds to perfect them, rather than relying on the engineers to 'fix' it. Everyone I work with appreciates this.
Logged

Luke Geis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2014, 09:08:43 pm »

When I say large stages I'm talking stadium and A national acts. It is costly and takes more time to set up multiple ambient mic stations. I have seen it done with Metallica and Led Zeppelin in a couple of different occasions. I think I even saw it done once on a Rush show?

It usually involves placing ambient mics near the drums, guitar and bass with another couple that face the audience near the vocal wedges. The idea of simply taking a couple of mics and pointing them at the crowd can make for a rather large yet indistinct overall sound. This doesn't factor in delay either........ The several ambient mics can be used to add flavor to each mix in any combination. Want more drums ambiance, cool, simply add that to the guitarists mix. 

I like the approach you ( Chris ) mention about using a flat EQ. I too also like using little or no EQ. I like to get it right from the source. If I have to move the mic several times to get it right I will. No point in trying to fix it and still not have it be right. I am also a panamaniac........ Some engineers look at me like I'm crazy, but yes I will pan the Hi-Hat to the side a few degree's to give it a place in the mix. I will pan most everything one direction or another ( obviously some things stay in the middle ). When I get the why and what on earth for's, my answer is this:

Imagine each band member as a piece of paper. Now realize we can only mix in 2 dimensions. There is a third, but I will get to that later. Volume is up and down ( softer in or more on top of the mix ) and panning is left and right. If you don't pan anything you can only differentiate the band members by volume, which is the equivalent of stacking all the pieces of paper one atop the other. The vocals on top and rhythm instruments on the bottom. Nothing really pops out. Now lets do the same thing but pan things around. Now you have more space being used and you can actually see more of the instruments popping out from behind another. Where there is less paper it's more transparent and where more instruments share the same space the less transparent and more opaque that section of the mix becomes. So panning things around a bit can open up space and make things more apparent in a mix even with similar volume levels. The only thing is getting over the idea that each individual channel may be panned left or right a bit. So how about that third dimension. That would be color. Color is the sonic content of each instrument and each instrument needs to have a different color in order to stand out from each other. Going back to mixing with everything panned right up the middle the only other way to differentiate the instruments aside from volume would be their color. Now imagine if you pan things left and right a little! It gets that much easier. When you get things right you should have a mix that takes very little volume to create the needed distinctions between instruments and have a desirable mix that feels natural and inspiring.
Logged
I don't understand how you can't hear your self

Derrick McDonald

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 11:58:48 am »

Do you blend on guitar mics and hard pan like some do for a FOH mix? 
Logged

Luke Geis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 08:32:04 pm »

At the level I'm providing for I rarely if ever have to use more than 1 mic per amp. I would not be against blending and panning, but Again at the level I provide for I would most likely be panning the guitar to the opposite side of the stage because of stage level. I usually laugh when I get a keyboardist that insists on stereo DI's. I will take the sends, but I usually end up panning hard one way and only partially the other. Again this is to make room for other instruments. Not much I do stays in the middle. Vocals, snare and perhaps acoustic guitar if it's the only one. Horns will also be spread across the field.
Logged
I don't understand how you can't hear your self

Jim McKeveny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 09:10:39 am »

I usually laugh when I get a keyboardist that insists on stereo DI's.

Even at wedding band level, stereo keys are routine. Lots of conscious effort goes into factory and custom patches and full panning is designed-in. The artist and audience should hear them as written.

And never laugh at people trying to do their best...
Logged

Dustin Campbell

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 09:31:17 am »

Those jdi's are no regular di box
Logged
Banning CA,

drew gandy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • Chicago and burbs
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 11:41:04 am »

Even at wedding band level, stereo keys are routine. Lots of conscious effort goes into factory and custom patches and full panning is designed-in. The artist and audience should hear them as written.

Does your wedding band audience listen with headphones?  I don't understand how I, as the soundman, can ensure that the audience hears the full stereo glory of the keyboard patches without giving each of them a headset.  Now, the artist who wears stereo IEMs probably should get a stereo feed if the resources are available.  I'm all for making them as happy as you can. 

My experience with "stereo" keyboard players apparently doesn't match yours.  It seems to me that most of these players like their stereo sounds when they play by themselves with headphones but don't have a concept of how their sounds integrate into a mix of an entire ensemble.  Then when they get to the show they again fail to realize how various elements of their stereophonics fall apart in most concert applications.  Remember OSM's rants about DZM? 

Quote
And never laugh at people trying to do their best...
This is a powerful statement and I definitely agree with the sentiment.  Respect is important.  Of course the corollary is: How will they 'broaden their horizons' if they don't get feedback about their efforts?  Ridicule seems cruel but it might provide the emotional charge that makes the education stick... 
Logged

Jim McKeveny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 612
Re: Trying out Radial JDX on distorted guitars for IEM
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 07:15:27 am »

I don't understand how I, as the soundman, can ensure that the audience hears the full stereo glory of the keyboard patches

I have worked with various factory keyboard patch developers over the years. They are quite aware of how and where their products are used, and how different patches lay in a mix with other instruments and vocalists. Mono options may be satisfactory for a shoestring budget (not really pro forum material), but stereo is optimal. Appreciating and using stereo patches actually makes better end results easier.

Now, as a soundman, you understand...

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
 


Page created in 1.149 seconds with 24 queries.