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Author Topic: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz  (Read 2060 times)

Mischa Steiner

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Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« on: May 03, 2014, 01:27:31 pm »

Hello all,

I found an excellent deal on a pair of Turbsound Flashlight tops, but they need to be crossed over at 180 hz, which is way higher than most tops. I don't have the budget to run a pair of kick bins in between them and the subs.

Is it reasonable to cross subs over around 180 hz? What subs will work crossed over this high and still pound down low? The Danley TH115s say they run up to 200 hz—do they sound good doing it? The only subs I've heard run that high are Voids, Turbosounds and Funktion Ones. Those are all out of my budget unless I get a pair of used F215s on ebay, and I don't think -3 db at 55 hz is going to cut it.

Thanks in advance!
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Art Welter

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 02:15:32 pm »

Hello all,

I found an excellent deal on a pair of Turbsound Flashlight tops, but they need to be crossed over at 180 hz, which is way higher than most tops. I don't have the budget to run a pair of kick bins in between them and the subs.

Is it reasonable to cross subs over around 180 hz? What subs will work crossed over this high and still pound down low? The Danley TH115s say they run up to 200 hz—do they sound good doing it? The only subs I've heard run that high are Voids, Turbosounds and Funktion Ones. Those are all out of my budget unless I get a pair of used F215s on ebay, and I don't think -3 db at 55 hz is going to cut it.

Thanks in advance!
The TH115 will work with a 180 Hz crossover, but front loaded drivers would probably sound better that high.
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2014, 08:34:20 pm »

I feel this question is related to more of a personal assesment of the cabinets themselves, folded subs tend to be quite live at around 160hz, if this is the case then you may be better off crossing them over a little lower to shift the live frequencies into the top cab's. Of course this also depends on the type of crossover and roll off of the crossover points.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2014, 07:36:47 am »

I feel this question is related to more of a personal assesment of the cabinets themselves, folded subs tend to be quite live at around 160hz, if this is the case then you may be better off crossing them over a little lower to shift the live frequencies into the top cab's. Of course this also depends on the type of crossover and roll off of the crossover points.

What is "live" and what does it look like on a technical specification?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 07:54:20 am »

The TH115 will work with a 180 Hz crossover, but front loaded drivers would probably sound better that high.
As usual-everything is a compromise.

The Tapped horn was designed to have a smooth response down low.  The trade off is that higher up-it can get a bit "wonky" with dips and peaks.

The Tapped horn is designed to be used as a sub or generally below 100hz-not a "bass cabinet" as in years past.

Art is right-a direct radiator would sound smoother that high-but not be as loud-so once again there is a tradeoff.

And how much different?  That is in the ear of the user.  To some it may be a big deal-to other no big deal.  It just depends on where the bar is set.

Of course the best way is to simply try it and it may be just fine.

As with many things-there is a lot to the "character" that does not show up on a spec sheet or some simple measurements.
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 05:23:20 pm »

What is "live" and what does it look like on a technical specification?

A peak at the resonant frequency of the cabinet..........It is sometimes difficult for me to place my thoughts into words that others will understand, I have had no technical training but I have 33 years of practical experience behind a desk in a live situation mixing most Australian national acts as well as many international touring bands, I tend to operate by feel than by technical knowledge :)
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 07:19:33 pm »

A peak at the resonant frequency of the cabinet..........

Thanks, Mike, that helps.

Not sure I'd be interested in a cabinet resonance as part of the desired tone production, but certainly those audible artifacts have to be taken into account in set up and voicing.
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chuck clark

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 11:30:07 pm »

Quote from: Mischa Steiner link=topic=149584.msg1372543#msg1372543 date=139913805 The only subs I've heard run that high are Voids, Turbosounds and Funktion Ones.
[/quote


Huh?  This is kind of a non-issue.  front loaded subs used to respond up to 1 k hz and even old folded horns like the PE 36 Cerwin Vegas were good up to 300 hz.  It wasn't until they started making band pass (one-note) boxes and much heavier moving mass drivers that the higher bass frequencies became diminished in response. It's that bottom octave that's a real challenge.  Heck get you a bunch of old Peavey FH-1's with black widows and give them 600 watts each and they'll knock your legs out from under you @ 80 hz.!  They start rolling off below that so THAT's where things get more difficult.  Relax.  Just about any good double 18 you care to name should work fine for you!
Chuck
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Guy Graham

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 08:00:56 am »

Hello all,

I found an excellent deal on a pair of Turbsound Flashlight tops, but they need to be crossed over at 180 hz, which is way higher than most tops. I don't have the budget to run a pair of kick bins in between them and the subs.

Is it reasonable to cross subs over around 180 hz? What subs will work crossed over this high and still pound down low? The Danley TH115s say they run up to 200 hz—do they sound good doing it? The only subs I've heard run that high are Voids, Turbosounds and Funktion Ones. Those are all out of my budget unless I get a pair of used F215s on ebay, and I don't think -3 db at 55 hz is going to cut it.

Thanks in advance!

The original high crossover point for Flash and Floodlight tops was based on the limitations of the original processing technology available, when they were first designed over 20 years ago.

I don't recall the details exactly, but you should find more info and modern examples of how folks are currently using these boxes if you search the web. I know a local venue that gets a great sound out of a pair of Floodlights over more modern TSW-218 subs. This works great in a long, narrow room.

The original 180Hz point was used because the slope was lower than commonly used these days - I think 12dB/octave. Hence the corresponding bass boxes were also crossed over at a point that allowed the underlap gap between the bass and low-mid drivers xo points to fill in the frequencies between them.

My experience of folks using Flash/Floods these days is that the low-mid driver in the top box can be crossed over lower than 180Hz, using a steeper slope. Hence you don't need bass boxes/subwoofers that go up that high.

I would query what application you plan to use a pair of Flashlights for? They have a pretty narrow dispersion, as they were designed to be arrayed in multiples. The non-skeletal version's cabinet is built with the correct trapizoidal dimensions so horizontal arrays could be tight packed for consistent coverage.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
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Art Welter

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Re: Crossing Over Subs at 180 hz
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 04:40:12 pm »

1)The original high crossover point for Flash and Floodlight tops was based on the limitations of the original processing technology available, when they were first designed over 20 years ago.
2)The original 180Hz point was used because the slope was lower than commonly used these days - I think 12dB/octave. Hence the corresponding bass boxes were also crossed over at a point that allowed the underlap gap between the bass and low-mid drivers xo points to fill in the frequencies between them.
3)I would query what application you plan to use a pair of Flashlights for? T
Guy,

1) 24 dB per octave crossovers have been available since the 1970s, and were used for Flash and Floodlight tops.
2) Crossover points in the 180-250 range were common because small mid-bass horns response drops off  below that range.
3) The OP has not been back since May 03, 2014, don't expect your query will be answered, but he wanted high efficiency for an off-grid application, an "Art Car" to be used at the Burning Man Festival, taking place Aug 25 - Sept 1, 2014.

Art
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:47:18 pm by Art Welter »
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