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Author Topic: DSP's sounding completely differing  (Read 10857 times)

Peter Hvedstrup

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DSP's sounding completely differing
« on: April 28, 2014, 03:04:29 AM »

Hi all

I have read Bennetts article on DSP behavior and it seems that they sound and act very different.

My rig is a old Turbosound Floodlight with TSW-718 subs, so the settings are simple 24DB LR filters, delay and gain structure (no EQ). 

This weekend my trusty (very) old BSS FDS-388 started making a lot of noise in the left channel. Just before the show i swapped to a Ashly Protea 4.24c with the exact same settings. The result was a completely different sound. The tops sounded more crisp in the higs but a lot "colder" in the sound. The gain structure was way off, and i had to dampen to top end a lot and raise the sub a little to balance out things. The rig as a whole sounded a lot thinner with less sub and more aggressive highs. It turned out ok but the FDS-388 sounded way better on the Floods and TSW's. On other speakers i have always loved my Ashly.

Is it really impossible to switch DSP even with simple settings?

 
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2014, 07:53:45 AM »

My guess is that you switched the bandwidth and Q parameters as Bennett points out in his article. I have never A/B the two processors but the Ashly is a solid unit.


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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2014, 08:30:27 AM »

Hi all

I have read Bennetts article on DSP behavior and it seems that they sound and act very different.

My rig is a old Turbosound Floodlight with TSW-718 subs, so the settings are simple 24DB LR filters, delay and gain structure (no EQ). 

This weekend my trusty (very) old BSS FDS-388 started making a lot of noise in the left channel. Just before the show i swapped to a Ashly Protea 4.24c with the exact same settings. The result was a completely different sound. The tops sounded more crisp in the higs but a lot "colder" in the sound. The gain structure was way off, and i had to dampen to top end a lot and raise the sub a little to balance out things. The rig as a whole sounded a lot thinner with less sub and more aggressive highs. It turned out ok but the FDS-388 sounded way better on the Floods and TSW's. On other speakers i have always loved my Ashly.

Is it really impossible to switch DSP even with simple settings?
Without conversion and/or testing, yes.  You read the article, right?  You sound surprised that your findings agree.

People complain about the modern trend of a manufacturer bundling the amp/DSP with the speaker package - Nexo requires NXAMP, JBL strongly recommends ITechHD, EAW recommends UX8800/UX3600, etc.  Your experience highlights why this is being done.

I still find it hard to believe that some folks balk at manufacturer-provided tuning.  In my experience, the difference that high-quality manufacture-supplied processing makes is not subtle, compared to the Smaart-dude-du-jour.
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Merlijn van Veen

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2014, 08:35:09 AM »


Is it really impossible to switch DSP even with simple settings?

Unfortunately not with guarantee as you've experienced yourself. The only way to port settings with confidence is to measure the specified DSP with factory settings using e.g. a dual-channel analyzer like Smaart and reconstruct the response on the new DSP.

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2014, 09:38:56 AM »

Unfortunately not with guarantee as you've experienced yourself. The only way to port settings with confidence is to measure the specified DSP with factory settings using e.g. a dual-channel analyzer like Smaart and reconstruct the response on the new DSP.

I gave up trying to get the AES to support definition and standards, or better yet one standard for Q in boost/cut EQ sections. For conventional crossover filters the Q definitions are adequate. 

There are a few other subtle issues that can cause errors between DSP platforms.

I find this unacceptable for the year 2014 and I don't even use them...

Back in the very old days (think vinyl playback or magnetic tape) they would often publish graphs and tables of dB vs frequency for important equalization curves.

That would work today. Hint hint.. At least until a standard emerges.

Until then buy powered speakers.  8) 8)

JR
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Mike Pyle

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2014, 11:36:39 AM »

I still find it hard to believe that some folks balk at manufacturer-provided tuning.  In my experience, the difference that high-quality manufacture-supplied processing makes is not subtle, compared to the Smaart-dude-du-jour.

COST is the complaint. Using proprietary tuning that requires proprietary hardware is disproportionately expensive, compared to the cost of equal or even better aftermarket dsp and amps.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2014, 11:40:21 AM »

Unfortunately not with guarantee as you've experienced yourself. The only way to port settings with confidence is to measure the specified DSP with factory settings using e.g. a dual-channel analyzer like Smaart and reconstruct the response on the new DSP.
Agreed.

There are all sorts of differences-so the best way to is simply overlay the traces-using whatever (eq-freq-gain-delay etc) to get BOTH the amplitude AND phase traces the same
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2014, 11:49:24 AM »

Just thinking out loud... Could a manufacturer publish a sound file of say shaped noise or sine wave sweeps, that are the inverse complement of the desired result. Then end users could use their measurement system du jour, that we ASSume are all accurate, or more accurate than their DSP interfaces, and tweak EQ/crossovers for flat response.

It might work....

JR
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 11:54:25 AM »

COST is the complaint. Using proprietary tuning that requires proprietary hardware is disproportionately expensive, compared to the cost of equal or even better aftermarket dsp and amps.
I would argue that this is a shrinking problem.  On the small side of things, self-powered boxes make this moot.  On the larger side of things, the performance difference and rider necessity of having a complete "system" make it likely a bad business decision to not get the matching amps. 

For the remaining passive boxes, aftermarket DSP or amps aren't better if they can't be made to sound as good as the manufacturer's recommended - they're just cheaper.
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Peter Hvedstrup

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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »

Hi all

Thanks for your replies.

I'm not shure a lot of you read that i actually stated that no EQ was used at all. Floodlight doesn't use EQ. That's why i'm surprised that a simple setup of 24db LR filters and delay can sound so different.



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Re: DSP's sounding completely differing
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »


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