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Author Topic: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?  (Read 3571 times)

Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2014, 10:22:38 am »

I've been really busy recently and distracted from this project, but thought that I should provide an update.  If you're familiar with the term "askhole" I'm trying to avoide it applying to me.

I did call the local professional and got a quote ($400) for coming out and doing a full setup.  He also recommended that we consider a Symetrix Jupiter 4 ($1,000) for our application.  We had a long discussion about how the monitors, under balcony speakers, and main speakers all needed to have a different EQ to achieve the best results.

At this point I'm working with the rest of the AV Team to evaluate our options.  I know that the Church Board would approve the $1,400 (because they trust us) so it's important that the AV Team have consensus on the best solution.  My personal feeling is that I would prefer to have something with more flexibility than the Dx38 if we are going to spend the money to have a professional setup done.  I think I may have to contact the person that previously helped setup the system in my church originally to see if he still has the equipment and willingness to help.  I am not sure what his level of skill really is, but it shouldn't cost anything to find out.

I'll take another look at the Sabine GraphiQ.

Thanks again for the ideas and information.

I spent about 12 years running live sound in a church that had a very dated design that lacked many of the architectural features that tend to reduce a room's susceptibility to feedback.  Heck, about half of the main speaker cluster was almost boresighted on the area that eventually became our band/orchestra pit, and that is just an example. Of course the church board was stagnant on many more pressing issues, so the sound system never received serious attention, either.

However I was able to sneak in a little technology both in terms of mics and electronics, and my tour of duty was characterized by other experienced mixers from larger churches in the area including some of my predecessors as being generally clear, well balanced and pleasant.

After looking at the DX38 it does not seem to lack the sum and substance of the electronic tools that I used to do what I did. What it does seem to lack is an easy user-oriented interface.

The idea of augmenting a well-adjusted and locked down DX 38 with something that has easy-to-twirl knobs has a lot of romance.

I will fearlessly countermand those who recommend against parametric eq. I've used both graphic and parametric eq, and if there are enough bands a graphic eq can work. But given the choice, I'd pick a multiband parametric first, just about every day of the week. 4 bands minimum, 6 wouldn't be wasted.

Live sound systems being necessarily dynamic in these days, adaptability. Electronic approaches to feedback reduction are necessarily intimately tied to a certain configuration of microphones. Move one several feet or even reorient it, and its time to retune the notches.

The best antifeedback tool is an experienced operator with the appropriate tools. This includes both equalizers and a collection of mics and stands and knowledge about how and motivation to use them. From the standpoint of the mixing console, the most effective tool is muting the mics that aren't relevant to the current scene.

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dick rees

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2014, 11:53:18 am »




After looking at the DX38 it does not seem to lack the sum and substance of the electronic tools that I used to do what I did. What it does seem to lack is an easy user-oriented interface.
[/quote

The RACE software allows you to use a computer to easily adjust and set up all parameters without scrolling/paging through the menus in the box.  Since the whole idea of a lockable, comprehensive system DSP presumes a competent and experienced technician with the ability to fully utilize modern programs such as SMAART, easy and repeated access to the unit is not really a priority.
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Jon McElvain

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2014, 08:09:13 pm »

I think I have pretty much everyone in agreement, or at least not in disagreement, that the $400 investment in a professional setup is the way to go. The guy I have been working with considers the Dx38 to be sufficient for a quality setup. It has 5-band PEQs on the two inputs and 4-band PEQs on each of the four outputs.

I was at the church last night and checked the current EQ settings. Only two bands on one input were set and everything else other than delays was either bypassed or an obvious default setting. I think the two filters were 200 and 400 hz or 400 and 800 hz. The filter widths were identical as was the db adjustment. I think this knowledge eliminated the interest in tracking down the guy that assisted with the setup originally using some measurement equipment. I am positive that we can do better.
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Jon McElvain

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2014, 08:14:08 pm »

I am positive that the church board would approve anything that I ask for up to their $1,500 limit and the church body would likely approve more than that which is why I am very careful in making recommendations that spend church money.  What I want is what I get. I recently donated an amplifier because the AV determined that it wasn't a need, but I still thought it was necessary. In the end they were right, but I still like having more amplifiers than we need so we have options in the event of a failure. In the end, the group decision was better than mine.
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2014, 08:14:14 am »


After looking at the DX38 it does not seem to lack the sum and substance of the electronic tools that I used to do what I did. What it does seem to lack is an easy user-oriented interface.

The RACE software allows you to use a computer to easily adjust and set up all parameters without scrolling/paging through the menus in the box.  Since the whole idea of a lockable, comprehensive system DSP presumes a competent and experienced technician with the ability to fully utilize modern programs such as SMAART, easy and repeated access to the unit is not really a priority.

Agreed, and I'm fully in agreement with that sort of thing as an important part of a good overall solution.

Various venues and even various configuration and usage modalities within a given venue have differing susceptibility to feedback. So, there is no one size fits all solution. Thus, trying to give detailed advice from thousands of miles away is fraught with difficulty.

When someone reports difficulty with feedback on a forum like this, it is hard to tell whether their problems come from having a tough nut to crack or comes from them stumbling into a situation that most experienced hands would immediately sense to be problematical and from experience and knowledge have a prioritized list of potential solutions at their finger tips.

In every case a well-informed, well-equipped  and experienced board operator is a big part of the best solution. Therefore anybody who finds themselves in this situation needs to consider where they are in that long unending journey to adequate training and experience. IOW, its probably not a situation with just hardware solutions.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2014, 12:52:11 am »

I used to have them.  Too slow when ringing out, of no use at all when music is playing.  A good parametric, and an FFT app on your smart phone will do a better job.
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Jon McElvain

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2014, 02:37:21 pm »

I used to have them.  Too slow when ringing out, of no use at all when music is playing.  A good parametric, and an FFT app on your smart phone will do a better job.

Used to have what?  I'm not sure which previous post you are referring to.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2014, 11:23:25 am »

Used to have what?  I'm not sure which previous post you are referring to.

I had feedback eliminators - the subject of the thread.
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Jon McElvain

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Re: Any recommendations for an affordable feedback eliminator?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2014, 10:42:30 pm »

As a follow up to this thread, we didn't end up getting professional help or any new components. I made a few adjustments in the processor and learning a few things to try on this forum and talking to the guy I was talking to about doing a setup for us. We didn't actively decide to not have a pro setup done, but all of the things that were objectionable to our ears has stopped. I don't know if the adjustments made the difference or not as the issues seemed to come up without any changes so they may have resolved themselves. We also ran a campaign to get people to hold the microphones and things have improved in that area a bit as well.

For now, things are going well...
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