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Author Topic: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?  (Read 19299 times)

Brian Marshall

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Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« on: April 17, 2014, 01:22:48 AM »

My question stems from a statement made in another thread. Reply #14

You should not (ever) be running power amps through a Furman (or any other) rack-mount "power conditioner"...

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148863.10.html

I am extremely interested in knowing why? Please elaborate.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2014, 07:14:29 AM »

My question stems from a statement made in another thread. Reply #14

You should not (ever) be running power amps through a Furman (or any other) rack-mount "power conditioner"...

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148863.10.html

I am extremely interested in knowing why? Please elaborate.
For anything that is not a UPS or voltage regulator, "power conditioner" is a little generous. There is very little "conditioning" going on - primarily they are a power strip that takes up rack space.

It is not generally advised to plug amps into these, because the amps don't need "conditioned" power, and additional wiring between the source and the amp is a source for voltage drop and power loss. If you aren't running your amps full-out, it isn't a big deal, but if you are trying to get the most out of your system or if the voltage is soggy due to long cords, eliminating whatever you can will make a difference.
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Robert Weston

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 07:21:45 AM »

Power conditioners are made (and better suited) for low voltage - continuous load - devices (i.e. effects, mixing consoles) basically anything that consumes a steady current.  They are not made for non-continuous (heavy load) devices like amplifiers.  Amplifier loads can widely swing from needing something as little as 1 amp of current up to 20amp (and higher depending on your amp) in a few milliseconds of time. 

We don't run any power conditioners on our rack of amplifiers; though, we do use a power conditioner/voltage stabilizer on our racks of outboard gear and mixing consoles.

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Bob Leonard

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 08:24:53 AM »

My question stems from a statement made in another thread. Reply #14

You should not (ever) be running power amps through a Furman (or any other) rack-mount "power conditioner"...

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148863.10.html

I am extremely interested in knowing why? Please elaborate.

Power conditioning equipment of any type is sized for the load to be handled. Mixers and effects units draw very little current and the use of a UPS is practical based on their needs. Keeping in mind that a UPS is designed and intended to be used to protect your equipment from brown outs, spikes, dirty power, and loss of power. In the event power is lost the UPS is designed to provide enough reserve power to the equipment to allow you to gracefully shut the equipment down, preventing loss of cached data and possibly corrupting the OS and firmware.
 
Power amps draw large amounts of current and in most cases a UPS capable of handling those type of loads will be large enough to make the use of the UPS impractical. A typical 3000 watt rack mount UPS will weigh close to 100 pounds and if the UPS is being used to it's full potential will usually provide power for 5-10 minutes max. There are UPS capable of providing 1000s of watts of reserve power, but as I had stated, the cost and size makes using them in the field for backup not practical. For data centers a specially designed UPS and generators provide long term uninterrupted power without any outage for days or even weeks if needed.
 
For power amps a good quality rack mounted surge protector will do the job of protecting the equipment from spikes, however, a voltage conditioner will be a better choice and one or two per rack will usually do the job. for digital mixers and outboard effects or DSP a 300 to 500 watt UPS per rack will usually do the trick just fine. And finally always size the device to fit your needs properly. If you have questions the manufactures web sites will point you in the right direction, and in the end your choices will be limited to how much you want to spend, and how much you can lift.
 
 
 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 08:27:10 AM by Bob Leonard »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 08:59:18 AM »


Power conditioning equipment of any type is sized for the load to be handled. Mixers and effects units draw very little current and the use of a UPS is practical based on their needs. Keeping in mind that a UPS is designed and intended to be used to protect your equipment from brown outs, spikes, dirty power, and loss of power. In the event power is lost the UPS is designed to provide enough reserve power to the equipment to allow you to gracefully shut the equipment down, preventing loss of cached data and possibly corrupting the OS and firmware.
 
Power amps draw large amounts of current and in most cases a UPS capable of handling those type of loads will be large enough to make the use of the UPS impractical. A typical 3000 watt rack mount UPS will weigh close to 100 pounds and if the UPS is being used to it's full potential will usually provide power for 5-10 minutes max. There are UPS capable of providing 1000s of watts of reserve power, but as I had stated, the cost and size makes using them in the field for backup not practical. For data centers a specially designed UPS and generators provide long term uninterrupted power without any outage for days or even weeks if needed.
Furthermore, UPS devices are designed for continuous loads like computers.  A "3000 watt" amp may draw much more power instantaneously than a 3000 watt UPS can supply, making UPS damage likely, or at the very least defeating the purpose of the UPS by causing the UPS to drop its load.

For power amps a good quality rack mounted surge protector will do the job of protecting the equipment from spikes,
Power amps are some of the best-protected, least picky devices out there, and other than extreme hits (where so-called "conditioners" are minimally effective anyway), don't benefit from any "filtering".  You can make an argument that if it's a good-quality 20A unit, electrical losses will be minimal and there may be some marginal additional protection, however unless you are using one conditioner per amp, you are combining devices on fewer circuits than you perhaps would be if you plugged each amp into a dedicated circuit.
however, a voltage conditioner will be a better choice and one or two per rack will usually do the job. for digital mixers and outboard effects or DSP a 300 to 500 watt UPS per rack will usually do the trick just fine. And finally always size the device to fit your needs properly. If you have questions the manufactures web sites will point you in the right direction, and in the end your choices will be limited to how much you want to spend, and how much you can lift.
I'm presuming you mean a voltage regulator, and yes, that has some value.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 09:16:11 AM »

Correct on all counts Tom.
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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »

My question stems from a statement made in another thread. Reply #14

You should not (ever) be running power amps through a Furman (or any other) rack-mount "power conditioner"...

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148863.10.html

I am extremely interested in knowing why? Please elaborate.

Brian...

TJ and Bob give good info.  But here's the question:

What do you mean by "power conditioner"?

This term is so generic as to require a link or reference to a particular device for your answer.  What is generally needed for power regulation in typical sound system usage is voltage regulation....because as has often been said, power conditioners don't (do anything).

If you study the thread from which you took your link, you'll get a better understanding of the different devices, tyeir applications and capabilities and why they are or are not appropriate.
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Thomas Le

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 09:24:57 AM »

By power conditioner, do you mean those Furman units with the pull out lamps and the voltmeter? Those are nothing but glorified power strips I can find at Walmart.


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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 09:52:41 AM »

Indeed. Most of the Furmans units use MOVs the same thing that's an any home grade $20 power strip. You are getting shafted if you are buying these. They don't protect anything very well.

If you really want something to protect SurgeX makes a few well I think only two models the 20AMP and 15AMP version. We use them on our Digital Consoles but they are more expensive than the furmans at around $800 but they provide way more protection than something like a furman using MOVs would. Not to mention a lot of those furmans just move a normal mode surge to a common mode surge which is just as bad if not worse.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:22:23 AM by JasonFinnigan »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 10:18:07 AM »

My question stems from a statement made in another thread. Reply #14

You should not (ever) be running power amps through a Furman (or any other) rack-mount "power conditioner"...

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148863.10.html

I am extremely interested in knowing why? Please elaborate.

The condensed reply - power amps draw far more (however briefly) than their continuous rating and such current draw will be too much for the "power conditioner; "power conditioners"  don't really condition anything (AVR units not included) as all they offer is some voltage surge protection by using sacrificial components (Metal Oxide Varistors) that will introduce their own problems later on; power amps DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' "conditioners."  Period.  Read John Robert's comments on this subject...

Spend your money on stuff that makes noise, I think microphones are good as you'll keep all but the cheapest for longer than you'll own a particular speaker, amp or EFX unit.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:35:59 AM by Tim McCulloch »
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Re: Proper use of a "power conditioner"?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 10:18:07 AM »


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