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[Brian Wynn]

I own 4887A's and love them.  I stress you to use ITech's with them only because I have yet to hear a rig with other processing and power that sounds as good as the Itech presets and processing. 

The 730 is a good rig too.  I wold say it has a little more horsepower than the 87 boxes.  BUT if you doing lav work or condenser mics on stage then beware I have had all kinds of issues with 250 - 500 buildup on stage.  I would guess because of the side exiting 10's.

Also the 730 rigging hardware will not travel in the 0 position they fall back to back when standing upright.  Which becomes a problem if you are planning on transporting on upright carts. 

[John Rutirasiri]

I'm curious about opinions on these two boxes. The EAW KF 730 versus the JBL 4887. I have my reasons for this but looking for real world experience and thoughts. The EAW system is processed with the UX8800 and QSC Power light amps and the 4887 would be powered by Lab Gruppen PLM 10 k or 20 K with Lake Processing. ( I own one of these rigs and looking to purchase the other), The systems would be used as a small festival rig or corporate AV events. Each system has 8 tops per side . I have an opportunity  to move into one of these from the other . Just hoping if its a side ways move all is well but as a move toward less performance I would keep what I have. If you know of a rig in that price range powered with this kind of value  and output please share you idea. Basically Im looking at $ 60 K to make a change and want to keep up good inventory and have a rentable box.

Thanks in advance

I am in a similar position with KF740 vs 4888.  They both sound great with their respective processors (UX8800 and ITech HD) and IMO are in the same class as far as output, weight, size, sonics, etc.  I think the same can be said of the KF730 and 4887.

Long time ago, a good friend told me to get the same system that other sound companies in town use.  It didn't make sense to me at first -- why drive a Honda Accord when everyone else drives it?  Why have a 4888 system when everyone has it?  How is that a competitive advantage?  Why not do better and get something different, something no one around here has?

He explained that other sound companies are not competitors, but they are your friends and in the same boat (most of them anyway).   Ability to do cross-rental is very important for some of the bigger shows.  Most of us can't afford to own everything nor does it make sense.

The other kicker was he told me to stop being analytical about the gears and the sound.  Don't buy A because you think it sounds better than B.  Yes you want the best sounding system bar none.  Yes the audiophile in you want the flattest system, and the engineer in you go crazy over kevlar or beryllium drivers and.  He said one buys equipment to make money, not to enjoy or brag.  Once it's been depreciated, it's time to turnover the inventory and start again.  Buy something that down the road can be sold easily and has good resale value.

At the time I didn't know A from B and almost pulled the trigger on Versarray.  The brand didn't matter -- it was cheap, it had ribbons (oooohhh), it was a line array.  Good thing my friend said he'd shoot me right then and there if I bought it.  So what did I do?  I went SLS instead.

I'm stubborn.  I wish I would have listened to my wise friend-- my business would be different right now. I should have posted and gotten feedback from Mac, Tim, TJ, Ivan, Art, JR (the other JR), and others that have been in this business longer than I've been alive.  I think you have a lot of very wise industry veterans here giving you it straight and not wanting you to make an expensive purchase without really thinking through.

But what do I want to buy today?  JBL? No, I want to get K-Array KH4 at $14K a pop or KH8 at who knows how much.  Makes no business sense, but I want...

(For the record, I own EAW line array but everyone around me has JBL Vertecs.)

Sorry for going off course.
--JR

[Riley Casey]

I consistently get comments from tour engineers that my Vertec 4888 system s one of the few that sounds good from the start without a lot of EQ added.  Vertecs powered by Lab Gruppen amps and BSS366 DSP.  Is this a better combination than others ?  Probably not but it does use the version four presets ( the last presets before Harmon discovered the engineering merits of horizontal marketing ) in the DSP and most importantly the amps are set to the recommended gains.  You can get excellent results from any brand of amp IF you read the directions. I also like the converters in the 366 and find that running the AES output of any Yamaha console from a 5D to a CL5 to an M7 into the AES in to rely on those converters makes a noticeable difference but not nearly as noticeable as setting amp gains correctly.  My general rule is if you have all your power amps at max gain you are very likely doing something wrong.

I own 4887A's and love them.  I stress you to use ITech's with them only because I have yet to hear a rig with other processing and power that sounds as good as the Itech presets and processing. 
.

[David Sturzenbecher]

"This rig sounds amazing.... because it doesn't sound like Vertec" is a line I get from numerous A/B level engineers on the 4888 rig I work with.  The thing is that I don't do anything special to the rig to make it different.  V5 presets with a bunch of 200Hz clearly cut out in the PEQ. 

I consistently get comments from tour engineers that my Vertec 4888 system s one of the few that sounds good from the start without a lot of EQ added.  Vertecs powered by Lab Gruppen amps and BSS366 DSP.  Is this a better combination than others ?  Probably not but it does use the version four presets ( the last presets before Harmon discovered the engineering merits of horizontal marketing ) in the DSP and most importantly the amps are set to the recommended gains.  You can get excellent results from any brand of amp IF you read the directions. I also like the converters in the 366 and find that running the AES output of any Yamaha console from a 5D to a CL5 to an M7 into the AES in to rely on those converters makes a noticeable difference but not nearly as noticeable as setting amp gains correctly.  My general rule is if you have all your power amps at max gain you are very likely doing something wrong.

[Tim McCulloch]

"This rig sounds amazing.... because it doesn't sound like Vertec" is a line I get from numerous A/B level engineers on the 4888 rig I work with.  The thing is that I don't do anything special to the rig to make it different.  V5 presets with a bunch of 200Hz clearly cut out in the PEQ.

We get compliments on our VerTec rigs, too.  Why?  I-Tech power with v4.2 and the use of the JBL array calculator.  While I do apply some array length correction EQ and a couple of voicing EQ points, there isn't any 'secret sauce.'  Mostly we do the predictions in LAC II until we're happy and then hang the rig.

Mostly it's about following the instructions though, and avoiding EQ or processing not consistent with V4.

I know, men following instructions....

At any rate, too much over-thinking can make for a long and unnecessarily difficult day.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

We get compliments on our VerTec rigs, too.  Why?  I-Tech power with v4.2 and the use of the JBL array calculator.  While I do apply some array length correction EQ and a couple of voicing EQ points, there isn't any 'secret sauce.'  Mostly we do the predictions in LAC II until we're happy and then hang the rig.

Mostly it's about following the instructions though, and avoiding EQ or processing not consistent with V4.

I know, men following instructions....

At any rate, too much over-thinking can make for a long and unnecessarily difficult day.

So you're saying that competent application of the tool makes a difference?  Huh... 

I've spent a couple Saturdays listening to different high-quality products for an install at my church.  It continues to amaze me how easy it is to fool our ears - differences in level between products, assumptions made about which track is "right" - what voicing to shoot for, etc. 

Sticking to the manufacturer's plan should be SOP for any company that has a clue - manufacturer's amps/processing, use of calculator, etc.

[Tim McCulloch]

So you're saying that competent application of the tool makes a difference?  Huh... 

Well, don't quote me on that...

When l'Acoustic brought out the vDosc with its requirements for training, specific brands/models of amps and the use of locked, black-box processing I took great exception to the model.  If I spend US$1million or more, it's MY DAMN SYSTEM and I'll do what I want...  or so I felt.  I think it's uniquely American to shoot oneself in the foot more than once...

It took some time to see the wisdom of this approach, and now I have a much deeper appreciation for what Jeff Cox and Paul Bauman had to accomplish in the USA.

That said, there are plenty of loudspeaker systems that don't perform like the prediction software shows (I call that the Kilimanjaro learning curve); or those that have no software at all (TVI, anyone?) and why anyone would buy those systems is beyond my explanation... but yeah, paying attention and following a competent manufacturer's training and procedures is the easiest, cheapest and most reliable way to have a system ready for the BE to tune to his/her liking.

My boss is a BE.  I hear back about the systems he mixes on, the digital consoles he finds accompanied by techs that know less about the new mixer than he does, all that stuff.  We don't want to be like those companies.  We want the BEs and our own crew to have a 'good day at the office'.  And oddly it's not that difficult if you give a shit about what you're doing to start with.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Well, don't quote me on that...

When l'Acoustic brought out the vDosc with its requirements for training, specific brands/models of amps and the use of locked, black-box processing I took great exception to the model.  If I spend US$1million or more, it's MY DAMN SYSTEM and I'll do what I want...  or so I felt.  I think it's uniquely American to shoot oneself in the foot more than once...

It took some time to see the wisdom of this approach, and now I have a much deeper appreciation for what Jeff Cox and Paul Bauman had to accomplish in the USA.

That said, there are plenty of loudspeaker systems that don't perform like the prediction software shows (I call that the Kilimanjaro learning curve); or those that have no software at all (TVI, anyone?) and why anyone would buy those systems is beyond my explanation... but yeah, paying attention and following a competent manufacturer's training and procedures is the easiest, cheapest and most reliable way to have a system ready for the BE to tune to his/her liking.

My boss is a BE.  I hear back about the systems he mixes on, the digital consoles he finds accompanied by techs that know less about the new mixer than he does, all that stuff.  We don't want to be like those companies.  We want the BEs and our own crew to have a 'good day at the office'.  And oddly it's not that difficult if you give a shit about what you're doing to start with.

The good ol' American ego - "I'm WAY smarter than some lame engineer who designed this product - my tuning is better."

[Malek Pallie]

I actually had the misfortune to A/B both these boxes just over a year ago...at the same show!

There were signs that it was going to be a bit of a Mickey Mouse rig, but I didn't heed them, and I turned up to find a system that had 4 hangs of 4887s for the field/main seating area, and 4 smaller hangs of KF730s for the bowl! The Vertec's were powered by a hodgepodge of various amps (Macrotech's and I-Techs) and processed with a 4800 and some incarnation of the V4 presets loaded. The 730 rig had UX8800 processors and  QSC PL amps. Subs were a collection of EAW SB1000 and SB850, all stacked in front of the stage.

During sound check I walked over to the bowl a few times, and I much preferred the sound of the KF rig. It sounded sweeter on the high end (particularly on Hi hats and vocal sibilants) and seemed to behave more uniformly whether it was a loud passage or a moderate part of the song (which the Vertec did not).

Obviously, the above system was put together by people who were punching above their weight category and probably sub rented about 2/3 of it, so it wasn't an apples to apples comparison (especially since the EAW had the newer processor) but since we are talking about both these boxes in this thread, I thought it would be a good place to share my horror story!

[Peter Morris]

The old and new answer is that real names are not required to be a member of these forums. A real name is required to post in these forums, and there is ample notice, including several links with "Required reading" in the title that explain the process. It does not belong on the registration page because it is not a requirement for registration. There are thousands of members who do not post, and who continue to use an alias.

The REP forums, where they do not require real names, now have separate registration.

There is no reason for anyone to be concerned, the moderators willing and able to send warnings.

Mac

I know its all documented, but for some reason some people miss it; so why don't you put a note on the registration page that says exactly what you said above - if you want to post on the forum, your real name is required - over the years I have seen this issue happen over and over again. I think it would go a long way to stopping conversations like this, ... the note its simple, free and not going to hurt anyone.

[ProSoundWeb Community]