ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down

Author Topic: BALCONY FOH MIXING  (Read 2461 times)

Kyle Van Sandt

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2014, 05:09:51 pm »

Our local PAC Concert Hall has the worst road show position, under the balc, far house left.  The plaster is about 6' above standing head level, and both it and the flutter echo off the house right wall (under balcony) absolutely color the sound.  For the mixerperson, though, it's a 15 second walk down the side aisle (continental seating) to be free of the balcony overhang.  I'm not sure much matters, as the hall has such funky acoustic problems.  Things sound very different about every 3 or 4 seats across the width; front to back is less of an issue until you get under the balcony.

I used to work for MTW a many years back and the engineers would set their consoles behind the tech table for the tech period and hope and pray it worked out when they moved back to the box.  It sort of worked.  All of the rooms in that place are all kinds of messed up audio wise. 

I know its not an option for a one off or R&R, but if you have rehearsals, its not a bad way to go.   
Logged
Kyle Van Sandt
Production Coordinator
The Egg, Albany, NY
vansandtdesigns.com

frank kayser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 425
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2014, 06:17:05 pm »

Thanks for the responses so far.  Could you tell me if the PA was stacked or if it was a line array?   If it was an array, was it high enough or just the layout of the theater not good for the  PA?

I would like to build a venue in my area.  I know some of the things I  want to do.  There are a lot of things that still need to be worked out. That is why I am asking all of you out there what your experiences have been out there. Hopefully I can avoid a lot of issues.  Much work to do yet.


Stacked.   Old theater (stage)  High balcony.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13047
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2014, 06:40:06 pm »

I used to work for MTW a many years back and the engineers would set their consoles behind the tech table for the tech period and hope and pray it worked out when they moved back to the box.  It sort of worked.  All of the rooms in that place are all kinds of messed up audio wise. 

I know its not an option for a one off or R&R, but if you have rehearsals, its not a bad way to go.   

Hi Kyle-

Yeah, the "house" position is still in the booth.  I've mixed enough events through that hole to really dislike it, too.  The PAC got an X32 for utility use and I'm frequently tempted to take it up to the booth and use my own tablet and WAP so I can be in the house.
Logged
Chewing through your wimpy dreams
They eat without a sound,
Digesting England by the pound.

Paul Thomas

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 12:20:04 am »

Thanks for the responses so far.  Could you tell me if the PA was stacked or if it was a line array?   If it was an array, was it high enough or just the layout of the theater not good for the  PA?

I would like to build a venue in my area.  I know some of the things I  want to do.  There are a lot of things that still need to be worked out. That is why I am asking all of you out there what your experiences have been out there. Hopefully I can avoid a lot of issues.  Much work to do yet.

It really all depends on the hang and geometry of the balcony.   The house I used to tech at had its "house mix position" in the front row of the balcony.  It was a 2000ish seat house with little over a 1000 in the orchestra level and right at 1000 in the balcony.  The PA was twin Meyer M2D linearrays with 8 cabinets per side.  The front row of the balcony was about the same height as the middle of the array so the Mix position actually gave a very good representation of the PA/Room combination.  The only real downside was you could not quickly run up and listen to the front fills.

That same venue had 2 "road mix positons"  one under the balc at the rear of the house, the other directly under and slightly in front of the balcony rail.   The under balcony position had a very clear sight line to the bottom of the array, and no under balcony fills were used.  With the house empty the rear position was very "harsh" and nasty in the 6k+ and the subs were very loose sounding.  However once "water bags" filled the house the PA actually cleaned up nicely.  Most of the harshness went away, and the bass improved, but was not perfect.

The front mix position was "visually appealing" to most FOH techs as it was "not in or under the balcony." However with being right in front of the balcony rail, and the weird geometry of the front of the balcony, there was tremendous slap back and incredible harshness in anything HF.  Even with people in the house the situation did not improve.   The bass was very very tight, and walking a few feet in front of the mix position did yield a  large improvement in true representation. 

The only good part about putting FOH in that location was less patrons would be sitting in that location, and less would be subject to that acoustic mess.

It was funny, any tech that did end up there (mostly against my advise) as soon as they made noise in the PA they would make massive cuts in the house Graphic, and immediately recognize my advise did have some merit.

Some house guys actually do know there houses very well.... =)  and continually fight to remedy situations like this, but  absorption or reflection can only do so much and sometimes physics wins.   

After being in that house for a while, I learned I will not judge a position simply by in or under a balcony.  Each room is different.
Logged

Kristo Kotkas

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
    • Eventech
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 08:48:19 am »

...once "water bags" filled the house....

This is funny :D
Logged

eric lenasbunt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
    • Bunt Backline Event Services, LLC
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 01:42:43 pm »

I mix weekly in a church that has a mix position that is in a "crow's nest" that is basically in an architectural dome (nightmare).

I use headphones a good amount and walk the flight of stairs enough times to get some good quad workout. I try to mix a decent amount from the iPad but sadly for all of it's greatness the Vi1's iPad app is still almost useless.

When we do special events I sometimes set a small desk downstairs on the floor and send LR to the main console upstairs in the dome of audio death.
Logged

Merlijn van Veen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
    • www.merlijnvanveen.nl
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 03:40:57 pm »

IMHO it's about line-of-sound. If I can see the source I can hear it. Most under balcony areas are quite spacious if you are a wavelength of about a thumb like 13k5, with exception of HF attenuation by air absorption. For a wavelength of 30 Hz however, an intermodal shipping container, the same area can be quite cramped. Some LF restrain might be in place. One can also wonder about the boundary conditions under a balcony. Normally we only have one dominant boundary, the floor, to deal with that puts us in half space. Under a balcony the ceiling and/or back wall arguably become notable influences. I feel that oblique floors and ceilings with the narrow part in the back tend to be more forgiving than parallel surfaces in terms of room modes. And the ratio between direct and reverberant energy which influences intelligibility. A can of worms.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 04:36:07 pm by Merlijn van Veen »
Logged

Jim McKeveny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 602
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 06:33:58 pm »

If I can see the source I can hear it.

That was my assumption until I repeatedly encountered combinations of distant mix position, lively house acoustics, and unreasonably low SPL restrictions. Yes, it was live electric band w/ orchestra accompaniment.

Most people would not conceive of placing an LD where they could not see the show. Why do they place a soundperson where they cannot hear the show?
Logged

Lester Seidenberg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 136
Re: BALCONY FOH MIXING
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2014, 06:17:25 pm »

Where the sound system control is has nothing to to do with sound. Architects do not like seeing our gear, so in a new- build, we are put in the light booth.   Other factors that are more important than whether we can do our job or not ( in no particular order) include: security, where we will take up the least amount of revenue generating seats, how many people we will distract, cable routing, and my favorite, hiding us from view.   Sometimes I also think that finding the most inconvenient for us is also a priority.   But look on the bright-side, at least you are usually in the room.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.091 seconds with 23 queries.