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Author Topic: Streaming Music?  (Read 1126 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2014, 11:02:13 pm »

I'll clarify and say that we have pretty comprehensive ASCAP/Bmi license that our municipal attorneys say covers any activity in the space.

Frankly - I have never heard of such a broad license existing. 

While I am no attorney, I would think that a statement signed by a client that says "my signature indicates I have obtained all meccessary copyrights and public performance permissions meccessary for any performer that occurs as part of my rental.

If it was up to me I would require they file a copy if their ASCAP/Bmi and for theater public performance rights. 

Lee - do you have more information on what the attorneys said the level of due diligence should be on the part of the venues?

Google "Compulsory license."  Typically the venue takes care of the necessary BMI & ASCAP licenses and charges back to clients pro rata or simply allocate the fees into hall rentals.

The compulsory license covers *most* but not all live uses of copyright material ('synchronization' where music is added to video or film, streaming or recorded, and uses within a theatrical/dramatic work are NOT covered).  Pretty much any use where the listeners/views are not physically in the venue is not covered (streaming or broadcast).

There has been some extensive discussion of this (it comes up at least once a year) and a forum search will be informative.  In a nutshell, *anyone* who might have received some benefit from the use of copyright materials can be considered liable if license is not obtained, but I haven't seen any case law where a sound company was liable for their client's actions... that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that I've not been directed to any relevant cases.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 11:06:50 pm »

I'll clarify and say that we have pretty comprehensive ASCAP/Bmi license that our municipal attorneys say covers any activity in the space.

Frankly - I have never heard of such a broad license existing. 

While I am no attorney, I would think that a statement signed by a client that says "my signature indicates I have obtained all meccessary copyrights and public performance permissions meccessary for any performer that occurs as part of my rental.

If it was up to me I would require they file a copy if their ASCAP/Bmi and for theater public performance rights. 

Lee - do you have more information on what the attorneys said the level of due diligence should be on the part of the venues?
Some of this works into understanding which rules you are supposed to follow in what situation.  I am not an expert in this by any means.  Just relaying info as I have understood it. 
They basically indicated that it was often a case by case basis but, in the case of a studio since they are the ones doing the actual recording they would be liable in most cases even if a client had signed a document saying that the client understood that the client needed to obtain the pertinent permissions. 
In a live situation it is usually up to the venue to have a blanket license for public performance or reproduction.  It is still against copyright law to have unlicensed copies on your machines and if your machines are for commercial use then single/private use licenses would not qualify.  Also for playback you are liable for mechanicals other than copyright.  Technically it's not even legal to use prerecorded tracks, without permission, for tuning a system but no one has ever taken prosecution that far. 

Lee
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2014, 11:41:16 pm »

Some of this works into understanding which rules you are supposed to follow in what situation.  I am not an expert in this by any means.  Just relaying info as I have understood it. 
They basically indicated that it was often a case by case basis but, in the case of a studio since they are the ones doing the actual recording they would be liable in most cases even if a client had signed a document saying that the client understood that the client needed to obtain the pertinent permissions. 
In a live situation it is usually up to the venue to have a blanket license for public performance or reproduction.  It is still against copyright law to have unlicensed copies on your machines and if your machines are for commercial use then single/private use licenses would not qualify.  Also for playback you are liable for mechanicals other than copyright.  Technically it's not even legal to use prerecorded tracks, without permission, for tuning a system but no one has ever taken prosecution that far. 

Lee

Uh...

I'm not a lawyer, plus copyright law has changed since I worked in broadcast radio back in another century...

But a studio?  If there was some attempt by the producer to defraud copyright holders on a cover, perhaps.  I mean if Van Halen never paid Roy Orbison's publisher the statutory, compulsory royalty for recording and selling a new version of "Pretty Woman", I suppose Acuff-Rose would lawyer up and sue anyone and everyone connected with it.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but a recording studio getting sued or prosecuted for recording legitimate covers ain't gonna happen in all practicality.

The rights you attain, as a purchaser of a sound recording, are the rights of private use and enjoyment.  Part of that is the right to make a copy and give to a friend or family member, or to have a redundant copy in your vehicle as well as your home.  So long as you are not giving away or performing 'the work' for strangers or outside a private social situation, you're probably okay.  What you don't get is the right to "public performance" or to commercially exploit the creative content contained within, or the recording itself.

What constitutes "public performance" is pretty broad but well defined.  For example a restaurant dishwasher can have a radio playing if he or those working with him are the audience, but if the customers in the dining room can hear it, it's considered public performance.  Last time I looked at the ASCAP website they had several other examples of inadvertent public performance.  In the case of "test" music, I think in most licensed venues it wouldn't matter.  The venue or client compulsory license should cover this use.  It's not that you personal copy cannot be used, but that the royalties for public use are paid by separate license that is not conveyed at retail purchase.

Try a search for "Brad Weber" and "copyright".  I recall he was familiar with this...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 11:50:11 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 05:44:10 am »

Uh...

I'm not a lawyer, plus copyright law has changed since I worked in broadcast radio back in another century...

But a studio?  If there was some attempt by the producer to defraud copyright holders on a cover, perhaps.  I mean if Van Halen never paid Roy Orbison's publisher the statutory, compulsory royalty for recording and selling a new version of "Pretty Woman", I suppose Acuff-Rose would lawyer up and sue anyone and everyone connected with it.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but a recording studio getting sued or prosecuted for recording legitimate covers ain't gonna happen in all practicality.

The rights you attain, as a purchaser of a sound recording, are the rights of private use and enjoyment.  Part of that is the right to make a copy and give to a friend or family member, or to have a redundant copy in your vehicle as well as your home.  So long as you are not giving away or performing 'the work' for strangers or outside a private social situation, you're probably okay.  What you don't get is the right to "public performance" or to commercially exploit the creative content contained within, or the recording itself.

What constitutes "public performance" is pretty broad but well defined.  For example a restaurant dishwasher can have a radio playing if he or those working with him are the audience, but if the customers in the dining room can hear it, it's considered public performance.  Last time I looked at the ASCAP website they had several other examples of inadvertent public performance.  In the case of "test" music, I think in most licensed venues it wouldn't matter.  The venue or client compulsory license should cover this use.  It's not that you personal copy cannot be used, but that the royalties for public use are paid by separate license that is not conveyed at retail purchase.

Try a search for "Brad Weber" and "copyright".  I recall he was familiar with this...

Tim,
I'm just passing on what we were told by one of the top copyright specific firms in the country.

As far as this goes related to our business this is all about assumed risk.

As far as a studio goes, think a little smaller.  A local or regional group doing covers comes in and wants to record an album of mostly covers but some original works, maybe even release those tracks on YouTube.  They now need permission to record and distribute the covers based upon the quantity pressed and they need permission to broadcast online.  This can definitely come back to the studio.  Any charges against the studio may end up being dropped but there are still costs/risks involved.

A dishwasher playing the radio for him/her self does not need a license, a radio playing music to one person in an office cubicle farm but also heard by a few other people in most cases does not need a license but the same played through in-ceiling speakers does.  If I recall correctly in many cases it has to do with the music being played back through more than a given number of speakers.  There are other qualifiers but the big ones were playback, through how many speakers. 

Using a recording as a part of another work (movie, theatrical performance, etc.) creates a derivative work which is a whole different animal altogether.

Broadcasting or distributing that work is another set of rules again as you eluded to in an earlier post. 

Bottom line is pretty much, if it is not for your immediate use/enjoyment or that of a small group of friends/family then you probably need to have other permissions.

As I recall, the thread that included Brad's comments, the thread that you referenced in your above post was a very good discussion.

Lee
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2014, 11:12:36 am »

Simply put outside of personal use using these streaming services is against their terms and is illegal.

You should sign up for a DJ pool site, they are not that expensive and you get a lot for what you pay. this is what we use for intermission/walkin music.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 11:29:35 am »

Simply put outside of personal use using these streaming services is against their terms and is illegal.

You should sign up for a DJ pool site, they are not that expensive and you get a lot for what you pay. this is what we use for intermission/walkin music.
Yes, Jason, but the DJ pool music, wherein it is licensed to professional DJs/etc for public performance, that doesn't cover ASCAP/BMI fees. If you're performing it for public consumption, those fees are still going to be applicable to whomever is the ultimate beneficiary. I say "ultimate beneficiary," as that's why, for example, a venue pays the fees for music (whether it be live music or a DJ) that is performed at their location. As a sound system operator, you can definitely make sure your client is paying those fees for any music that is played at their event (that you have provided, and playing for them). However, you aren't responsible for ensuring the DJ that is playing has paid (or is having paid on their behalf) his/her licensing fee(s). And you can't just play the DJ pool music without those fees being paid.

-Ray
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Cosmo

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 06:48:33 pm »



<snip> I've begun only playing background music from locals whom I have direct permission to play.


I have seen this approach used successfully in two different clubs over the years.  Unfortunately they are no longer around (for reasons unrelated to this topic) but when in operation they not only circumvented the ASCAP/BMI/SESAC fees but also promoted the local musicians whose music they were playing.  Win-win.

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Lee Brenkman

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Re: Streaming Music?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2014, 03:47:49 pm »

  If I recall correctly in many cases it has to do with the music being played back through more than a given number of speakers.  There are other qualifiers but the big ones were playback, through how many speakers. 


I know personally this to be true.  Gap Stores, of which there were only a few in San Francisco at the time, hired a firm for which I was a sub contractor, to install speakers in the rafters of their stores and they played the then top rated FM rock station, KSAN most of the time through those speakers.

ASCAP/BMI took action and billed them for the "re broadcast" thing and it went, if I'm not mistaken all the way to the Supreme Court who ruled that a single radio and its own speaker in the store could be played without incurring license fees but the multiple speaker set up was, indeed, "re broadcast".
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