ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: How loud is to loud  (Read 3779 times)

Tommy Peel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • North/East Texas (near Tyler)
    • Facebook Profile
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 05:40:46 pm »

Even with just a "simple" meter it gets a lot more complicated.

Consider the different levels you get with just the 4 basic options (A or C weighting and fast or slow).

Using just those 4 variables you can easily get a 20dB (or more) difference in reading on the same signal.

100dB A slow is a lot louder than 110dB C fast.

So it is not just a "simple number".

What is the recommended setting for a church sound person to use? What setting will give the best picture of potential hearing loss in a live audio environment? I realize there probably isn't a "hard" answer to this but I'm hoping for some kind of guideline or recommendation.
Logged
Mackie Onyx 1640, JBL MPro 415s, Mackie 808s Mixer Amp, Samson S-Com Dual Comp, Behringer MDX 4600 Quad Comp, TC Electonic m300 Multi-Effects processor, Shure DFR11EQ5,  '09 13 inch MacBook Pro, 1st gen iPad

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2215
  • Marietta, GA
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 06:08:36 pm »

What is the recommended setting for a church sound person to use? What setting will give the best picture of potential hearing loss in a live audio environment? I realize there probably isn't a "hard" answer to this but I'm hoping for some kind of guideline or recommendation.
Most of the hearing loss criteria use A-weighting and slow response and that is also probably what most churches use, although I have noted a seemingly increasing number using C-weighting that is technically more appropriate for the sound levels normally encountered with contemporary worship.  The problem is that even with the same weighting and response time, the same peak or average SPL level can be related to dramatically different frequency responses, room acoustics, musical genres, dynamic ranges, etc. that could lead to quite different perceptions of the associated loudness.
 
Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
Your question actually goes right to the heart of the matter in that "reasonable" is a subjective determination and what you deem a reasonable sound level for your services using your audio system in your worship space may be quite different than what may be deemed reasonable in other situations.
 
I recall several similar discussions where people noted that the "reasonable" sound level in their church was determined by how loud they had to run the system in order to work with the levels coming from the stage. In those cases the "reasonable" sound level was determined by the sound quality rather than the actual SPL (which may have otherwise been deemed unreasonable).
Logged

Stephen Swaffer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 496
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 11:22:32 pm »

  [quote author=Brad Weber link=topic=149171.msg1369770#msg1369770 date=1396994916
 
I recall several similar discussions where people noted that the "reasonable" sound level in their church was determined by how loud they had to run the system in order to work with the levels coming from the stage. In those cases the "reasonable" sound level was determined by the sound quality rather than the actual SPL (which may have otherwise been deemed unreasonable).
[/quote]

Probably completely OT, but if the goal is sound re-enforcement, having to overcome stage volume seems like an oxymoron?  I think I know where the comment is coming from, but it seems like the solution should be fixed somewhere besides at the master fader.

Back on topic.  I understand the complexity of a hard and fast answer.  Yet, as an electrician, I will use this example-the voltage at a typical outlet is 120 volts-nominal.  Averaged , it might trend up or down and vary 10 percent plus or minus.  For some situations, if it fluctuates, or is noisy,  it can be critical and there are tools and methods to take this into account.  Most of the time, if I know it is between  100 and 130, I know it should work OK-I really don't care if it is 121.507 volts or 116.435 volts-nor do I usually care if it has a poor power factor or any of number if possibilities-yet I could say asking for a 120 VAC at 60 Hz is an over simplification of the issue, and in some situations it would be.

The technology to monitor a service and calculate an average level, a peak level, and the dynamic range of service or performance should be relatively easy to implement and might prove to be a very useful tool for sound techs-but I do not have the knowledge to put something like that together.

Yes, what people do outside of church is beyond my control-and if they go to there car and crank music over 100 dB for 3 hours they will probably suffer hearing loss regardless of service volume.  Perhaps to a tech that works in a sound lab it seems an over simplification, but it seems there should be some practical way to monitor sound levels and have a reasonable opportunity to be responsible with sound levels.   
Logged
Steve Swaffer

Kent Thompson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 227
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 11:49:59 pm »

Experience has told me what level I should run our system at in the church to
a. Get the least amount of complaints and
b. Reduce my hearing exposure to acceptable levels because it is the only thing I can control.
c. Meet with leaderships approval.

To help with peoples concerns I have informed the leadership where people can sit to help reduce their exposure if they feel it is too loud for them.

For me that has been sufficient.
note: people with hearing aids can give you valuable information on levels. Most of them will shut off at certain levels. I try to minimize that happening...of course that may no be loud enough in some situations but, it is in ours.
 
Logged

Mike Scott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2014, 12:36:37 pm »

The original question was how "loud is too loud?"

I know the range we try to keep our levels and it does vary depending on the music team and the congregation etc that day but overall it is relatively modest compared to some places I have been.  I have walked out of churches that were ear bleeding loud especially when we had younger kids.

But let's pretend you are standing at the board and you have to decide whether it is too loud or not.  AKA you must pick a number/rule of thumb. 

What do you do? 

For better or worse, we (sound guys and leadership) try to stay under 100 dB C Slow measured at the front row of seats.   





           
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3722
  • Atlanta GA
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2014, 01:12:18 pm »

Experience has told me what level I should run our system at in the church to
a. Get the least amount of complaints and
b. Reduce my hearing exposure to acceptable levels because it is the only thing I can control.
c. Meet with leaderships approval.

To help with peoples concerns I have informed the leadership where people can sit to help reduce their exposure if they feel it is too loud for them.

For me that has been sufficient.
note: people with hearing aids can give you valuable information on levels. Most of them will shut off at certain levels. I try to minimize that happening...of course that may no be loud enough in some situations but, it is in ours.
I was at a Church yesterday and the Pastor said "Yeah I know we have people walk out because it is to loud.  But that is who we are and we are not going to change for them".

Of course they LOVE their kick drum in that Church.

Sometimes you don't try to please everybody.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Rob Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1095
  • Boston Metro North/West
    • Lynx Audio Services
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2014, 04:59:12 pm »

For my Sunday night gig it is too loud when some of the regulars that usually stay the whole evening start leaving before the first break.

I find that if I can keep it below 94dB A weighted slow at my mix position (which is not in the main pattern), I don't get many complaints.

It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Logged
rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

Cailen Waddell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 489
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2014, 06:53:24 pm »


It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Because if the waitress can't hear my drink order there is going to be a problem 😏
Logged

frank kayser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 433
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 10:15:19 pm »

For my Sunday night gig it is too loud when some of the regulars that usually stay the whole evening start leaving before the first break.

I find that if I can keep it below 94dB A weighted slow at my mix position (which is not in the main pattern), I don't get many complaints.

It is too loud in my opinion when the waitress has to yell for me to hear her 1ft from me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Interesting - great minds run in the same circles.


I also use the regular barflies the same way, and note whether anyone wants the front tables.  I found 95dBA at the bar the top end tolerable (40' from stage). 92dBA is all the better.  If the bartender can't get the order, it's too loud.  The only exception is when we have an over-zealous, rimshot-happy drummer.  That crack cuts through anything, and the result is always "too loud".


frank
Logged

Bill Schnake

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
    • Schnake Sound
Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2014, 09:05:45 am »

Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!
Peter, this is a pretty easy one...it depends.  It depends on the audience that is listening to the music.  I tend to under mix the volume if we have a above 50 crowd at a festival.  Generally speaking at FOH 75' from the stage I stay around 90 - 96 db on a flown EAW system.  If we are doing modern country, which sound surprisingly like 80's Rock and we are at a fair grounds, 5000 plus in the audience who are younger, we would be around the 102 - 110 db depending on the artist.  With a rock band in the same venue we would be anywhere from 105 - 112 db.  It really depends on the audience.

At home I listen to music/TV/etc except the wife at about 65 -70 db.  A weighted.  You really don't want to know how load she can get.

Just what we do.

Bill  8)
Logged
Bill Schnake

217.670.1328    Office
217.553.2278    Cell
Schnake Sound, Inc

Experience, Expertise, Professionalism and Reliability
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.124 seconds with 23 queries.