Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Brad Weber]

Unfortunately, between potential differences in how the sound levels and response may vary throughout the listener area, the system frequency responses, the relationships of the peak and average levels, the room acoustics, etc., even churches operating with the same SPL levels at FOH may reflect two very different situations and expriences.  Add in potential subjective factors and personal preferences and you can see why it is so difficult to relate what is acceptable as far as loudness to a single SPL value.

[Lee Buckalew]

Unfortunately, between potential differences in how the sound levels and response may vary throughout the listener area, the system frequency responses, the relationships of the peak and average levels, the room acoustics, etc., even churches operating with the same SPL levels at FOH may reflect two very different situations and expriences.  Add in potential subjective factors and personal preferences and you can see why it is so difficult to relate what is acceptable as far as loudness to a single SPL value.

And this comes back to training.  As we have systems that are capable of higher and higher SPL with little distortion we have experienced higher and higher levels because it does not "sound" (seem) as loud as a system producing lower level with higher levels of distortion. 
Arguing that what someone likes should be the metric by which a damaging force is applied is like arguing that you like it when lasers occasionally sweep through the audience and just because a few people get hit in the eyes, causing permanent damage, that's no reason to change how you do things. 
If we said, "welcome to church, this morning we are going to inject each of you with a drug that will only make some of you lose a part of your hearing.  This is a policy that will continue every week and we know that the overall effects can be cumulative but it's what we like". How many people would do this?  Yet, that is what some churches do.  They inject audio that is damaging, at least to some, into the ears of their congregations.  Damage is often not noticeable by a ringing in the ears (in most cases) although if you experience ringing then you have created damage.  Damage is cumulative.  Even temporary threshold shift creates damage over time.
There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone.  Education and practice is the key here.

Lee

[Jonathan Johnson]

Hey guys, I am a young church and live tech from the St. Louis area and I wanted to see what you all think. So, How loud is to loud? Concert, In- ears, or even just at home listening! Let me know what you all think.
Thanks!

Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.

If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.

[Ivan Beaver]

Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.

If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.

I disagree.  With it :just loud enough to be heard" means there is no dynamic range.

Just look at classical music.  It covers A VERY wide range-and if all of it was "just loud enough to be heard" it would be boring.

Having been raised "classical" (oboe was my primary instrument) , a lot of effort goes into getting the dynamic range to meet the "inspiration" of the piece.

It is hard to get any energy at "background music levels".

But everybody is entitled to their opinions.

But I do agree there is a point to where more is not better.

[Stephen Swaffer]

[quote author=Lee Buckalew link=topic=149171.msg1370121#msg1370121 date=1397314372

There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone.  Education and practice is the key here.

[/quote]

My question is should education and practice = trial and error?  After 20 years at our church, I can usually tell when the volume is "on target"  (assuming no head cold or other ailments).  When on target there will usually be 4 or 5 that would say something-except they know I will kindly acknowledge their concern, refer them to the pastor and change nothing. I know where the most likely seats complaints will come from are, etc-so I know our definition of "too loud".  I also know-considering audience-that next week when we have a youth conference, the levels will we a notch higher-and if a day later we are doing a funeral they will most likely be considerably lower.

IMO, the challenge would be to come up with a tool to speed up the learning curve and give a reference-maybe a target range-for the next generation so that the congregation does not spend another "x"number of years as guinea pigs.  Would a slow, c weighted dB range at FOH provide the best guide?  Would it be possible to relate that guide-case by case- to "good practice"-so a pastor who truly cares about is congregation can feel like he is doing right by them?

I agree with Ivan.  I feel  that limiting dynamic range to the minimum would be akin to allowing an artist to use only one color for all of his paintings.  There is a time and place for fast, vibrant, loud songs and preaching-and a time and place for a quieter more reflective mood-and volume is obviously a key component setting the mood of any musical score.  Our Christmas play from last year had 2 musical highlights.  One a lullaby sung by Mary and Joseph to the baby Jesus, the other a powerul song of praise during the manger scene that caused me to ride gain on the master fader to keep from hurting people(though I wrestled with how loud to go).  Both good songs-made incredible by the dynamic contrast between scenes.   

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Anything louder than the minimum necessary to hear what needs to be heard is too loud. And even that might be too loud if there is distortion, environmental noise, or other unwanted sound that makes it difficult to understand the desired sound.

If you are equating loudness with inspiration, it is like a drug. As you get used to it, you seek more and more to achieve the same effect. At some point, you begin creating permanent damage. Music doesn't need to be loud to stir the soul.

I used to say that one persons joyous noise is another persons infernal racket, but it
occurred to me this morning that a more anagramatic statement of the situation might be the difference between a joyous noise and annoy us joys...

[Jonathan Johnson]

Just look at classical music.  It covers A VERY wide range-and if all of it was "just loud enough to be heard" it would be boring.

I don't see that being in conflict with my previous assertion, though perhaps I wasn't clear. If the loudest passages are "just loud enough to be heard" then the quietest passages will not be loud enough to be heard... and therefore it's not loud enough.

I certainly didn't mean that you should quash all dynamics and play everything just above the noise floor. Far from it; I think compression is overused. Compression has become a tool abused to make everything too loud. If you've compressed all the dynamics out of the program, there's really no difference between 10 dB above the noise floor and 30 dB above the noise floor, except that 30 dB above is annoying.

Dynamic amplitude is a good thing. So is dynamic timing. So sad to see it lacking in contemporary production.

[Chris Penny]

The way I tend to mix for Sunday services is to consider the congregation as part of the mix, normally placing it in the mix as I would a choir/tertiary BV's.  The aim of this is to ensure the congregation remains engaged with what is happening.  For me this normally means lower overall volumes for some songs in some services, but also allows room to push it a bit when the congregation really gets going at other times.  Even when running sound for youth services this metholology tends to work. 

It should be noted I am fortunate enough to be able to hear the congregation fom my current FOH position.  Unfortunately this methodology doesn't quite work when stuck up a balcony or in closet.  Personally I think engagement with congregation is one of the reasons we should always advocate for the FOH position to be where the congregation is.

Other good things to look out for are the looks on young children's faces - if they are smiling (or dancing) you are probaly fine, if they are screaming you may want to brings things down a little.

[Justin Bartlett]

[quote author=Lee Buckalew link=topic=149171.msg1370121#msg1370121 date=1397314372

There are no specific numbers on a meter that define the threshold where this occurs for everyone.  Education and practice is the key here.



My question is should education and practice = trial and error?  After 20 years at our church, I can usually tell when the volume is "on target"  (assuming no head cold or other ailments).  When on target there will usually be 4 or 5 that would say something-except they know I will kindly acknowledge their concern, refer them to the pastor and change nothing. I know where the most likely seats complaints will come from are, etc-so I know our definition of "too loud".  I also know-considering audience-that next week when we have a youth conference, the levels will we a notch higher-and if a day later we are doing a funeral they will most likely be considerably lower.

IMO, the challenge would be to come up with a tool to speed up the learning curve and give a reference-maybe a target range-for the next generation so that the congregation does not spend another "x"number of years as guinea pigs.  Would a slow, c weighted dB range at FOH provide the best guide?  Would it be possible to relate that guide-case by case- to "good practice"-so a pastor who truly cares about is congregation can feel like he is doing right by them?

I agree with Ivan.  I feel  that limiting dynamic range to the minimum would be akin to allowing an artist to use only one color for all of his paintings.  There is a time and place for fast, vibrant, loud songs and preaching-and a time and place for a quieter more reflective mood-and volume is obviously a key component setting the mood of any musical score.  Our Christmas play from last year had 2 musical highlights.  One a lullaby sung by Mary and Joseph to the baby Jesus, the other a powerul song of praise during the manger scene that caused me to ride gain on the master fader to keep from hurting people(though I wrestled with how loud to go).  Both good songs-made incredible by the dynamic contrast between scenes.   

In my opinion, A-weighted slow is a much better metering method to use if you're trying to correlate the level with hearing damage (or "it's too loud" annoyance).  C-weighted would work better if you're trying to avoid noise complaints from neighbors.

[Don Sullivan]

I often notice the perception of "too loud" is derived from the transitions from walk-in volume to worship music to pastor speaking, back to worship music. If the sound "jumps" in volume, people's reaction are often negative. Measure your room during walk-in. With people chattering, I am usually at 75 Decibels (A weighted).
When the pastor is speaking I am usually at 72 decibels. During worship music I am asked to keep my A-weighted average volume no louder than 92 Decibels. No small task when sometimes the band stage volume is 85 decibels at my mix position. But if I start the worship music volume well below the place I want it, and roll up slowly, I can obtain an average volume just under 100 decibels without complaint.

What does that mean in terms of mixing? It means at the start of a worship set I may only have vocals and light kick drum prevalent in the house mix, mixing around the ambient volume of the guitars, snare and other drums. As the first worship song progresses, people's ears adjust to the higher volume, and I can bring instruments and average volume up, again slowly, or during natural swells in the music. I also slowly bring the house volume down toward the end of worship music, so announcements or the pastor don't seem too quiet.

[ProSoundWeb Community]