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Author Topic: How loud is to loud  (Read 28862 times)

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 09:37:56 PM »

I agree with Jeff.  You will have nearly as many answers to that question as there are people in the service and someone has make the call. 

I have found it useful to be able to point out to those who compain of hearing damage that our peak levels are below the the level that OSHA requires hearing protection for-if you are exposed 8 hours a day vs less than 3 minutes for a song.  Use the same method as OSHA and it at least diffuses the gripes-whether or not OSHA is right is irrelevent.

Also, if the pastor is on board, I have had my pastor occasionally remind people that though we try to have consistent sound, the reality is that it will sound diffferent in different seats.  If you don't like it where you are at try a different seat next service
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 10:10:42 PM »

I agree with Jeff.  You will have nearly as many answers to that question as there are people in the service and someone has make the call. 

I have found it useful to be able to point out to those who compain of hearing damage that our peak levels are below the the level that OSHA requires hearing protection for-if you are exposed 8 hours a day vs less than 3 minutes for a song.  Use the same method as OSHA and it at least diffuses the gripes-whether or not OSHA is right is irrelevent.

Also, if the pastor is on board, I have had my pastor occasionally remind people that though we try to have consistent sound, the reality is that it will sound diffferent in different seats.  If you don't like it where you are at try a different seat next service

You can't use the same levels as OSHA unless you are measuring with a dosimeter. 
Also, keep in mind that OSHA levels were developed based on levels that would result in 50% of the people exposed throughout their working career developing significant hearing loss.  NIOSH levels are actually a better reference if you want to keep from damage.

A simple discussion of level does not answer the question of perceived loudness or hearing damage unless you discuss at what frequencies you are measuring.

Here's a link to a good paper by Etymotic research.
https://www.etymotic.com/pdf/er_noise_exposure_whitepaper.pdf

Lee
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 12:54:29 AM »

You can't use the same levels as OSHA unless you are measuring with a dosimeter. 
Also, keep in mind that OSHA levels were developed based on levels that would result in 50% of the people exposed throughout their working career developing significant hearing loss.  NIOSH levels are actually a better reference if you want to keep from damage.

OSHA standards were conceived with constant noise in mind, such as you might get from running machinery. Music (barring certain Top 40 performers) doesn't fit this model well. Even so, it's a guideline that we have.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 05:22:47 AM »

OSHA standards were conceived with constant noise in mind, such as you might get from running machinery. Music (barring certain Top 40 performers) doesn't fit this model well. Even so, it's a guideline that we have.

OSHA guidelines were developed with the dose in mind hence the need for using a dosimeter.   They are referenced to constant exposure but then use an exchange rate.  The dose is the accurate measurement.  They were also developed based on the people exposed to the sound(s) in question being in quiet when they were not at work.  OSHA only regulates the workplace for workers so would regulate for an usher at a concert but not for the actual audience member.  There are no regulating body for listeners but there is a body that makes recommendations.  That would be NIOSH.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 07:48:20 AM »

My point was a a simple frame of reference to defend a given sound level.  If I remember correctly, the standard is or was 95 dB, honestly can't remember whether A or C weighted over 8 hours.  If my peak levels are in the 95 to 100 dB range for 2 or 3  3 minute songs for less than 3 hours of services a Sunday and rest of the service is considerably lower, it doesn't take a dosimeter to figure out I am well under that average.

If there is a legal concern, then one would obviously need to be more technical in the measurement.  For my suggested purpose-soothing the minds and concerns of a few people, IMO a rough but logically conclusive measurement should be sufficient.
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Brad Weber

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2014, 10:38:11 AM »

A few issues with OSHA:
 
  • It is intended to be applied to occupational noise exposure, so they may apply to church employees but are not applicable to attendees (the same with concertgoers, etc.).
  • Since it is based on workplace noise exposure, OSHA is predicated on an 8 hour 'dose' or total exposure.  There are references to sound levels for shorter time period exposures but those are really referencing how exposure to various noise levels relate to the overall dose.
  • Because it is referencing the noise exposure, OSHA does not actually address the source noise levels except in terms of the resulting exposure.  In other words, OSHA does not define any limits on the noise source sound levels, only on the resulting noise exposure.
  • Similary, OSHA does not address reducing the source noise levels, only reducing the resulting exposure through various methods that may be as simple as providing hearing protection devices or reducing the time one is exposed to higher sound levels rather than reducing the levels themselves.
  • OSHA defines two separate action levels and the lower action level of an 85dBA 8 hour TWA or dose requires establishing a hearing conservation program with routine audiometric testing to assess that any hearing loss over time that is not age related is below a defined level.  I doubt many churches would want to implement that process, however ignoring it means overlooking one of the important aspects of the OSHA criteria.
 
As far as appropriate sound levels for a church, there can be so many factors to consider.  Some relate to the measurements themselves such as what weighting and response time are used for the measurements?  Are you addressing peak, 'eyeballed' average, Time Weighted Average, percent exceeded or some other level?  How accurate are the measurement devices?  Where are the measurments made?  And so on.  Other factors relate to the sound system and audio content.  How might the levels and frequency response vary throughout the listener area?  What is the frequency content of the audio?  Then there are subjective factors such as personal preferences regarding the style of music.
 
Add those all together and what XdB actually represents in terms of the perceived loudness and noise exposure can vary widely.  And that is why I believe that a church really needs to define what is 'right' for them and not try to apply the criteria used by other churches with potentially different systems, spaces, memberships and services.
 
As to Stephen's point, the problem is that you have no way of knowing or controlling people's noise exposure outside the church.  If someone is near the exposure limits from their exposure before and/or after services then exposure to anything over 85dBA during a service could result in an exceedance related to implementing a hearing conservation program while exposure to any levels over 90dBA may cause an exceedance relating to requiring providing hearing protection (again, OSHA is addressing reducing the exposure, not the noise levels).  As a result, the only approach to avoid a church service potentially causing an exceedance of any OSHA criteria is to avoid any sound during the service potentially adding to the exposure at all and that means keeping the peak level for all listeners below 85dBA, a level that most churches would likely find overly restrictive.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2014, 02:17:22 PM »

As to Stephen's point, the problem is that you have no way of knowing or controlling people's noise exposure outside the church.  If someone is near the exposure limits from their exposure before and/or after services then exposure to anything over 85dBA during a service could result in an exceedance related to implementing a hearing conservation program while exposure to any levels over 90dBA may cause an exceedance relating to requiring providing hearing protection (again, OSHA is addressing reducing the exposure, not the noise levels).  As a result, the only approach to avoid a church service potentially causing an exceedance of any OSHA criteria is to avoid any sound during the service potentially adding to the exposure at all and that means keeping the peak level for all listeners below 85dBA, a level that most churches would likely find overly restrictive.

To put this another way, an SPL during a service that does not exceed the safe dose for an audience member in attendance only during the service MAY exceed the safe dose for a performer or other church employee/volunteer that is also exposed to high SPL before the service during practice, rehearsal, and sound check.

Since church leadership may not want to restrict the SPL during the service to what would otherwise be a 'safe' level for those exposed during the pre-service sessions, it may be prudent to protect those people during the pre-service either through minimizing high-SPL output or providing some means of hearing protection for use during that practice time.

You can also mitigate the issue somewhat by giving the performers and other workers quiet time (in a quiet room) between practice and the service -- this gives their ears and minds time to rest and recover.
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Brad Weber

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2014, 03:36:06 PM »

To put this another way, an SPL during a service that does not exceed the safe dose for an audience member in attendance only during the service MAY exceed the safe dose for a performer or other church employee/volunteer that is also exposed to high SPL before the service during practice, rehearsal, and sound check.
Another example is how many people go home after church and mow the lawn?  It is possible for the noise exposure for each individual activity to appear acceptable if looked at based on just the duration of that activity but to then have the composite noise exposure be problematic if both activities occur in the same 8 hour period.  And if the composite noise exposure from the church service and lawn mowing results in an OSHA exceedance or hearing loss then is it the lawn mowing or the service that is to blame?
 
This issue relates to many misinterpreting Table G-16 in Paragraph 1910.95(b)(2) of the related OSHA standards.  As an example, that table is not saying that you can have 105dBA levels for any 1 hour period, it is actually saying that exposure to 105dBA for a 1 hour duration represents the entire allowable exposure for any 8 hour measurement period and thus if one is exposed to 105dBA for 1 hour then the noise exposure for the other 7 hours of the 8 hour assessment period must not add to the overall exposure.  Table G-16 is also addressing when "administrative or engineering" controls (i.e. reducing the levels or duration of exposure) or hearing protection must be implemented, however the criteria for being required to implement a hearing conservation program is effectively 5dB lower than the levels referenced in Table G-16.
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Mike Scott

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2014, 04:18:02 PM »

Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 05:34:30 PM »

Of course it is complicated, but we only have a dB meter (if we are lucky) and want to run at reasonable levels... do we do nothing?
Even with just a "simple" meter it gets a lot more complicated.

Consider the different levels you get with jsut the 4 basic options (A or C weighting and fast or slow).

Using just those 4 variables you can easily get a 20dB (or more) difference in reading on the same signal.

100dB A slow is a lot louder than 110dB C fast.

So it is not just a "simple number".
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: How loud is to loud
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 05:34:30 PM »


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