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Author Topic: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip  (Read 12583 times)

Taylor Hall

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 11:10:32 AM »

Faulty wiring knows no bounds.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 11:45:10 AM »

But this behavior was seen over two different amps and two different speakers.  It could not be a cable or speaker issue.

Most modern amps will indicate clip when current limiting (like from too heavy load impedance or wiring fault). While a wiring fault will usually cause audible artifacts.

JR
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chris broadway

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »

Most modern amps will indicate clip when current limiting (like from too heavy load impedance or wiring fault). While a wiring fault will usually cause audible artifacts.

JR

Here is an example for my questions:
1) If I have two amps with one speaker plugged in each.  Lets call the amp/speaker sets "A" and "B".
2) both amps are at the same output level and visual LED on the front and sound is good
3) And then I grab another speaker of the exact same type and daisy chain it to set "A"
4) SET "B" amp and speaker that have not changed are still the same while set "A" amp and speaker now visually clipping and I hear the 'overdrive sound'
5) I remove the extra speaker from set "A" and now daisy chain it to set "B"
6) set "A" is back to normal and set "B" now visually clips and I hear the overdrive sound


The problem followed the daisy chain over two diverse paths. How is this a cabling issue?
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 12:31:33 PM »

Here is an example for my questions:
1) If I have two amps with one speaker plugged in each.  Lets call the amp/speaker sets "A" and "B".
2) both amps are at the same output level and visual LED on the front and sound is good
3) And then I grab another speaker of the exact same type and daisy chain it to set "A"
4) SET "B" amp and speaker that have not changed are still the same while set "A" amp and speaker now visually clipping and I hear the 'overdrive sound'
5) I remove the extra speaker from set "A" and now daisy chain it to set "B"
6) set "A" is back to normal and set "B" now visually clips and I hear the overdrive sound


The problem followed the daisy chain over two diverse paths. How is this a cabling issue?

Since the cable appears to be the only thing common to both setups, one would highly suspect it to be faulty.  Assuming that something can't be the problem without testing or proof sabotages the problem solving process.

So many times people have persisted in saying "it couldn't be XXX" only to come back after 5 pages of posts and say "It was XXX after all".

Check your cables.
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2014, 12:38:49 PM »

As Dick is saying Short in cable or short in patch panel.

    On another note, Are you bridging these amps?
CTS 600's current limit 2 ohm st and 4 ohm bridge and are basicly useless at either of these tasks.
Wrong tool for the job.

Regards,
Nate
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2014, 01:08:13 PM »

Here is an example for my questions:
1) If I have two amps with one speaker plugged in each.  Lets call the amp/speaker sets "A" and "B".
2) both amps are at the same output level and visual LED on the front and sound is good
3) And then I grab another speaker of the exact same type and daisy chain it to set "A"
4) SET "B" amp and speaker that have not changed are still the same while set "A" amp and speaker now visually clipping and I hear the 'overdrive sound'
5) I remove the extra speaker from set "A" and now daisy chain it to set "B"
6) set "A" is back to normal and set "B" now visually clips and I hear the overdrive sound


The problem followed the daisy chain over two diverse paths. How is this a cabling issue?
Did we determine loudspeaker impedance, and amp drive capability?
OK allow mw...  Crown CTs600 
300W @ 8 Ohm,
300W @ 4 ohm,
150W @ 2 ohm   
   

Daisy chain is not a technical term. Can I ASSume you mean connected in "parallel", which would drop the speaker impedance in half, requiring 2x the current from the amp at same level setting?

As I already posted a wiring fault is usually more severe with the amp barely making any output at all, while they happen occasionally where there is only a partial short. A wiring fault "could" be in the same wire you use to attack the same extra speaker, while I consider that a low probability.

More likely scenario is simple amp current limiting from too much speaker load, while most amps can drive two speakers, that model Crown does not look happy with heavier loads. 

In general when you load an amplifier with 4 ohms it will make roughly 2x the power that it would at 8 ohms. Your amp makes the same power at 4 ohms, so guess what? It is already current limiting at 4 ohms so paralleling two 8 ohm cabs makes the same 300W as one 8 ohm cab but now split between two boxes so 1/2 the original power per box.  Adding a third cab would actually result in less total power out.

My advice is you need a lot more amp...

JR
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chris broadway

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 01:54:17 PM »

Since the cable appears to be the only thing common to both setups, one would highly suspect it to be faulty.  Assuming that something can't be the problem without testing or proof sabotages the problem solving process.

So many times people have persisted in saying "it couldn't be XXX" only to come back after 5 pages of posts and say "It was XXX after all".

Check your cables.

I know I am the one seeking the answers and need to be receptive to all comments...but how many more times can I say there is no common cable?  Read the original question in the original post.  the example I gave was to try and 'decomplicate' the issue.  These are two separate diverse paths with no common anything between the two.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 01:55:12 PM »

The EV speakers are 8 ohms, and look like they want between 500 and 1000 watts to run at peak performance.
Just to clarify, speakers do not "want" power, you deliver power into them and all the speaker power rating indicates is the maximum power you can safely put into them, not how much power it "wants".  The power rating also has nothing to do with peak performance, only maximum output.  If the speakers get as loud as you need them to be then the amp being rated less than the speaker power rating is irrelevant.
 
As to the Chris's issue, it may be important to note that they apparently have one amp driving one house speaker, one amp driving two daisy chained (assuming meaning parallel wired) house speakers and one amp driving one monitor.  So all three amps seem to be operating in a single channel mode and thus likely bridged mode.  In bridge mode the CTs is rated at 600W into 16 Ohms or 8 Ohms and 300W into 4 Ohms.  So different numbers than JR presented but otherwise the same concept regarding it being related to current limiting.
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chris broadway

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 01:58:17 PM »

Just to clarify, speakers do not "want" power, you deliver power into them and all the speaker power rating indicates is the maximum power you can safely put into them, not how much power it "wants".  The power rating also has nothing to do with peak performance, only maximum output.  If the speakers get as loud as you need them to be then the amp being rated less than the speaker power rating is irrelevant.
 
As to the Chris's issue, it may be important to note that they apparently have one amp driving one house speaker, one amp driving two daisy chained (assuming meaning parallel wired) house speakers and one amp driving one monitor.  So all three amps seem to be operating in a single channel mode and thus likely bridged mode.  In bridge mode the CTs is rated at 600W into 16 Ohms or 8 Ohms and 300W into 4 Ohms.  So different numbers than JR presented but otherwise the same concept regarding it being related to current limiting.


I think you and JR hit the nail on the head.  thanks.
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chris broadway

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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 02:03:07 PM »

Just to clarify, speakers do not "want" power, you deliver power into them and all the speaker power rating indicates is the maximum power you can safely put into them, not how much power it "wants".  The power rating also has nothing to do with peak performance, only maximum output.  If the speakers get as loud as you need them to be then the amp being rated less than the speaker power rating is irrelevant.
 
As to the Chris's issue, it may be important to note that they apparently have one amp driving one house speaker, one amp driving two daisy chained (assuming meaning parallel wired) house speakers and one amp driving one monitor.  So all three amps seem to be operating in a single channel mode and thus likely bridged mode.  In bridge mode the CTs is rated at 600W into 16 Ohms or 8 Ohms and 300W into 4 Ohms.  So different numbers than JR presented but otherwise the same concept regarding it being related to current limiting.

I forgot to add...this is the line from JR I am going to follow up on "In general when you load an amplifier with 4 ohms it will make roughly 2x the power that it would at 8 ohms".  If I understand this correctly, running parallel will decrease the impedance from 8 to 4 ohms which then makes the amp send twice as much power.  this makes sense why I can have to amps one in parallel and one not, both set at the same output level, and the parallel one shows twice the output on the LED.
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Re: Daisy chain speakers causing Amp clip
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 02:03:07 PM »


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