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Author Topic: Clear-Com over distance ?  (Read 9313 times)

John Penkala

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Clear-Com over distance ?
« on: March 17, 2014, 09:31:27 AM »

Hi all,
          I am wondering what people are doing for PL over distance. Thing's were pretty straight forward when I used to run 300' feet of multicore for our signal snake. The shows we are doing now are bigger (channel count) and in much larger spaces. For this particular application the primary signal conduits are a 300' Cat 5e(3) and for longer distances single mode fiber. The planned network will have managed swictches divided into 2 VLAN's, One for DANTE data and the other for "Control" data. FWIW, The "Control" side is essentially for anything not Dante, i.e. Wireless Workbench, Dugan Control Software, Yamaha Studio Manager, and perhaps internet if it can be done with no adverse effect to operations. We are also planning to add an "outdoor" wireless access point for ipad's etc.
          Currently for PL we have a two-channel Clear-Com MS702 base station connected to a Tempest wireless system. We also use the Clear-Com combiners that put two channels of PL on one mic cable.
          I am wondering how we can best run our current gear either within the newly planned ethernet network infrastructure or if there is another solution to help us handle these longer distances. And, how we might better extend the range of the Tempest wireless PL.  Any help will be appreciated!

John Penkala
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 09:39:48 AM »

Why not just send your comms over Dante? get yourself a couple of 2w-4w conveters and a small Dante interface (like a Stewart Audio or an AtteroTech or a FourAudio DBS1) and use that to get the comms audio over the Dante network.

Regarding tempest range, the next stage is to get the remote antenna box and get your antennae to a more ideal location over Cat5. Beyond that you're looking at multiple bases w/ roaming, or tempest-capable antenna distribution systems
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John Penkala

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 10:07:51 AM »

Why not just send your comms over Dante? get yourself a couple of 2w-4w conveters and a small Dante interface (like a Stewart Audio or an AtteroTech or a FourAudio DBS1) and use that to get the comms audio over the Dante network.

Regarding tempest range, the next stage is to get the remote antenna box and get your antennae to a more ideal location over Cat5. Beyond that you're looking at multiple bases w/ roaming, or tempest-capable antenna distribution systems

I didn't think of that. Perhaps, I could use a pair of inputs/outputs on the the RIO 3224 boxes backstage and on the RIO 1608 at FOH?
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Steve Kennedy-Williams

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 10:41:05 AM »

Why not just send your comms over Dante? get yourself a couple of 2w-4w conveters and a small Dante interface (like a Stewart Audio or an AtteroTech or a FourAudio DBS1) and use that to get the comms audio over the Dante network.

Regarding tempest range, the next stage is to get the remote antenna box and get your antennae to a more ideal location over Cat5. Beyond that you're looking at multiple bases w/ roaming, or tempest-capable antenna distribution systems

Key suggestion here is the 2 wire to 4 wire converters. Once you've converted to 4 wire, you can route comms like any other audio. Besides 2 to 4 wire converters, you will also need a clearcom power source on each side as 4 wire won't pass power.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:51:45 AM by Steve Kennedy-Williams »
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 12:03:20 PM »

Besides 2 to 4 wire converters, you will also need a clearcom power source on each side as 4 wire won't pass power.

If you don't mind spending a little bit, I would suggest looking at the Studio Technologies units. They will power the IC line, and provide the 2-4 conversion with metering.

http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m47.html
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Steve Kennedy-Williams

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 12:28:20 PM »

If you don't mind spending a little bit, I would suggest looking at the Studio Technologies units. They will power the IC line, and provide the 2-4 conversion with metering.

http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m47.html

We have other converters in inventory. I spoke to Studio Technologies last year, but they wouldn't arrange a demo unit presale. Not only that they refused to waive a restock fee if we weren't happy with the unit. Good gear, lousy customer relations.
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Pete Erskine

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 01:12:07 PM »

We have other converters in inventory. I spoke to Studio Technologies last year, but they wouldn't arrange a demo unit presale. Not only that they refused to waive a restock fee if we weren't happy with the unit. Good gear, lousy customer relations.

It would be better anyway to rent one.  Probably much less tahn a restock fee would be if they offered one.

I recommend their hybrid as one of the best.  You will not be dissatisfied.


BTW you did not tell us how far you want to send the comm signal nor if there would be copper available.   Clearcom will run much farther than 300'.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 01:48:18 PM by Pete Erskine »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 01:17:26 PM »

BTW you did not tell us how far you want to send the comm signal nor if there would be copper available.   Clearcom will run much further than 300'.

I was wondering, too.  With only 3 stations I've run ~2000'.
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Jens Palm Bacher

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 01:27:23 PM »

I'm not a big fan of running comms over the audio "snake. When something goes apeshit, its nice to know that the clearcom is a seperate system (with the master station on a UPS). I have seen both desks and racks loose their Optocore interface, and unless you have UPS' on everything, Dante is volunerable to power failures.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:16:56 PM by Jens Palm Bacher »
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John Penkala

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 10:51:59 PM »

It would be better anyway to rent one.  Probably much less tahn a restock fee would be if they offered one.

I recommend their hybrid as one of the best.  You will not be dissatisfied.


BTW you did not tell us how far you want to send the comm signal nor if there would be copper available.   Clearcom will run much farther than 300'.

Thanks Pete,
             Most shows need com to go at least 300ft. For those we could use copper but would like to utilze the network if feasible/reliable.  An increasing amount of shows are going to push 1000ft. for which the fiber would be used.
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John Penkala

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 10:58:11 PM »

I'm not a big fan of running comms over the audio "snake. When something goes apeshit, its nice to know that the clearcom is a seperate system (with the master station on a UPS). I have seen both desks and racks loose their Optocore interface, and unless you have UPS' on everything, Dante is volunerable to power failures.

I have a UPS with all digital consoles and with every stage box.
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John Rutirasiri

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 02:32:42 PM »

Off topic... last show someone tried to run their wired ClearComm on one of my Roland digital snake audio channels (the snake itself is over CAT5e) and it would not work -- the snake removed the DC power being supplied by the base station.  Just thought I throw that out there.

-JR
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John Sulek

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 01:28:30 AM »

Off topic... last show someone tried to run their wired ClearComm on one of my Roland digital snake audio channels (the snake itself is over CAT5e) and it would not work -- the snake removed the DC power being supplied by the base station.  Just thought I throw that out there.

-JR
That is why everyone is suggesting converting the Clearcomm to 4wire which is balanced audio (2 channels...send and return)without the DC power. At the other end where it is converted back to 2 wire (Clearcom) you have a main station to power the Clearcomm from that point onwards.
DC power doesn't pass on any digital snake/transport that I know of.
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 07:29:38 AM »

That is why everyone is suggesting converting the Clearcomm to 4wire which is balanced audio (2 channels...send and return)without the DC power. At the other end where it is converted back to 2 wire (Clearcom) you have a main station to power the Clearcomm from that point onwards.
DC power doesn't pass on any digital snake/transport that I know of.

Exactly,

The other point, regardless of whether you are using a digital snake or not, is that converting it to 4w also balances the audio. Normal 2w comms audio is unbalanced, which is one of the reasons that it is very susceptible to noise being induced on long runs. I quite often end up sending comms up the FOH-Stage multi as 4w audio, since it mitigates these issues.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 01:36:26 PM »

Exactly,

The other point, regardless of whether you are using a digital snake or not, is that converting it to 4w also balances the audio. Normal 2w comms audio is unbalanced, which is one of the reasons that it is very susceptible to noise being induced on long runs. I quite often end up sending comms up the FOH-Stage multi as 4w audio, since it mitigates these issues.

It is also possible to balance the audio without going to 4W with a dry out box. You have a dry out box on each end of the snake, and power each end separately. There is no DC on the long cable run, and the audio is balanced so it rejects noise better,

Mac
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Steve Kennedy-Williams

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 02:12:26 PM »

It is also possible to balance the audio without going to 4W with a dry out box. You have a dry out box on each end of the snake, and power each end separately. There is no DC on the long cable run, and the audio is balanced so it rejects noise better,

Mac

Now for really long Clearcom runs, we are looking at the Telecast CommLink
http://www.miranda.com/CommLink

30Km over one single mode fiber. Will power up to 10 beltpacks, RTS and Clearcomm, 4 wire support. Will work as a converter in standalone mode.

It also fits the same frames our HD-SDI transmitter/receivers
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 02:26:30 PM »

Yes, I had seen those telecast units.

They certainly make sense if you already own a bunch of copperheads, etc...

What do you pay for a pair of those (a Tx and an Rx)?
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Steve Kennedy-Williams

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 02:57:37 PM »

Yes, I had seen those telecast units.

They certainly make sense if you already own a bunch of copperheads, etc...

What do you pay for a pair of those (a Tx and an Rx)?

for the Viper II frame version (cheapest) they are ~$2600 a pair USD.
We already have the Viper II and 12 channel TFOCA-II fiber carrying HD-SDI to the locations we want to add comms, so it's something we are thinking about.
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 03:52:33 PM »

for the Viper II frame version (cheapest) they are ~$2600 a pair USD.
We already have the Viper II and 12 channel TFOCA-II fiber carrying HD-SDI to the locations we want to add comms, so it's something we are thinking about.

OK, interesting. Not as much as I thought to be honest!

I mean a Dante interface, 2-4 and PSU would be much cheaper, but less elegant too
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Re: Clear-Com over distance ?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 03:52:33 PM »


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