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[Jacob Robinson]

This seems to be a battle for many sound techs, but in our smaller church I am really battling Monitor vs. House Sound Levels.

The musicians claim they cannot hear, then once I get it turned up where they can hear, the sound is loud to the congrgation, even without any mains.  Then when I get the mains turned up where they overpower the Monitor sound bouncing off the back wall the overall sound is way too loud.

I am thinking iof buying an inexpensive sound level meter, to be able to tell exactly how loud it is.


I know that our monitors are outdated, but as far as their quality I have no experience to be able to grade them on comparison.


Personal IEM are not really an option, as I know this would be the best solution, but I was wonding if when we get a new Mixer with more than 2 AUX sends, if stage sound level could be brought down, by adding more monitors which are physically closer to the person, and then I could only send exactly what they need to hear and not what everybody needs to hear.

I am open to any solutions, this was just an idea of mine, but I am not sure if this will improve the situation at all.

[Mike Spitzer]

More monitors can definitely help. Basically, the most instruments/vocals you have fighting for space, the louder the monitor will need to be for everybody to be happy. That's especially true on smaller monitors, like 12"s, like we use. By using more and limiting what goes into each mix, the levels should come down. Placement is also an issue. Your bassist needs to be farther away from the monitor to hear the lows better, for example. We use 4 stage wedges a fifth headphone monitor for the drummer.

If something like Aviom in-ears are out of the question (cost), you could still go in-ear. There are self-monitor boxes (Rolls, Samson and ART make some, as well as others) that you could use instead of floor wedges. Everybody just plugs headphones into the box and controls their levels. That's how our drummer does it. You don't have the advantage of everybody being able to set their own mix, so you still have to mix monitors from your aux sends, but it would eliminate the stage level problem. Decent headphones/earbuds are a must there.

Also, I consider an SPL meter essential, especially for church. It should be worship, not a concert, and you really need something objective you can use to determine sound levels. That way you can set policies based on it.

-mS

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Set the vocal level in the house, then add vocals to the monitors.  Obtain a reasonable balance and level, then have them bring up their instruments on stage.  Any and all amplifiers should be pointed towards the players ears, not out at the audience.  Tilt-backs or amp stands will help.  If and when they cannot hear the vocal monitors, turn the amps back down until they can rather than boosting the monitor level.  If they can't accept this, get new musicians.......

[Frank DeWitt]

Do you have guitar amps on stage? They need to go first (Or go to one of the amps that has a speaker bypass but still loads the amp so they can get that distortion.)

Why are IEMs out?  You mention getting a new mixer.  There may be ways to combine the new mixer and IEMs

Tell us more.

Frank

[Taylor Phillips]

How do you have your monitors set up now?  How many wedges are you using?  You may have it set up where asking for more x means another musician can't hear y as well.  With only two mixes, I send one to the bassist and drummer the other one to everyone else.  This way, the mixes aren't crowded with things the other musicians don't need to hear as much of.  Another think to consider is 'subtractive mixing.'  If someone asks for 'more me,' turning everyone else down will have the same effect - this is extremely useful. 

[Jon Palmer]

Jacob, here is what I have done in that situation. If you do not have a lot of cash to buy a lot of gear, you'll have to be more creative. First of all, every band I've ever dealt with, church bands, will want to play at at least 108db on the stage unless you really fight with them. Get a $50 GC Rta mike. You cannot do much about excessive db's without in ears and acoustic treatment on the back wall. What you can do is reverse your normal thinking about house sound. Turn off your mains and turn your monitors toward the sound booth. If your monitors have a built in eq (most likely), you'll either need to disable it or override it with a monitor eq. Play recorded music through your monitors and boost all the cut frequencies that the passive eq has killed and make them sound as much like a house speaker as you can. Turn them back toward the back wall and set up a hot mike if front of them and have someone agitate the mike until you get some feedback at high gain levels and then cut only those frequencies back. A good parametric eq would work (even a cheap berringer). Now play the band, and you'll find they will need less monitor because they can hear better since they are hearing everything now. Try to run the music completely off the stage and only use the house speakers as a fill. This works real good with 4 auxes and 15" Yamaha monitors. Mineral fiber insulation behind the back stage curtains will fix alot of the bounce off the back wall. I have done this in my nigtclub and in churches and it works. Your monitors are the most important part of the pa because if they don't sound good at 110db, the overall sound in the room will be bad. Fix the monitor problem and the house sound will clean up. In a small room or short room, you don't need much house sound anyway. Btw, I have done this with 2 auxes and 3 monitors. I had to pair up the singers that had similar sound needs. Some people can hear better than others. Cleaner monitors will help them hear.

This seems to be a battle for many sound techs, but in our smaller church I am really battling Monitor vs. House Sound Levels.

The musicians claim they cannot hear, then once I get it turned up where they can hear, the sound is loud to the congrgation, even without any mains.  Then when I get the mains turned up where they overpower the Monitor sound bouncing off the back wall the overall sound is way too loud.

I am thinking iof buying an inexpensive sound level meter, to be able to tell exactly how loud it is.


I know that our monitors are outdated, but as far as their quality I have no experience to be able to grade them on comparison.


Personal IEM are not really an option, as I know this would be the best solution, but I was wonding if when we get a new Mixer with more than 2 AUX sends, if stage sound level could be brought down, by adding more monitors which are physically closer to the person, and then I could only send exactly what they need to hear and not what everybody needs to hear.

I am open to any solutions, this was just an idea of mine, but I am not sure if this will improve the situation at all.

[Walt Jaquith]

Worship bands dont want to sound cruddy.  They may have beat down attitudes from being constantly told they're too loud (without ever being offered any help, sympathy or objective data to support the opinion), but unless they're up there for completely wrong reasons, they want to be a blessing, not a trial to their congregation.

The first thing you're going to have to do is get the band to trust you.  Fight them, and they will fight you, and nothing will improve.  Let them know that you are interested and invested in what they are doing, and that you consider yourself not only their servant, but part of the band as well.  This way you share the responsibility for ministering with them, and they know you're not going to throw them in front of the bus when things go wrong.  I don’t know if you've ever considered this, but worship practices are hard.  What you really want is the worship, but there's that empty room, and no feedback on how you're doing....oops; the room is almost empty.  There's the sound tech.  Does he look bored?  While the band is playing their hearts out, is he playing solitaire on the AV computer?  Or is he acting like the music is engaging, and has some power to it?  If you really engage in the practices, you will earn the right to be heard when its time to offer feedback.  At the same time, the band will respect you when you tell them that they're not the only ones you serve; the congregation needs a good platform to worship from, and you can't sacrifice that, either.

I was brought in to do some training at a church in my town, and was facing exactly the situation you're describing.  The monitor levels were way too loud, the band still couldn't hear, and everyone was frustrated.  I took some spl measurements in the room with and without the mains on (absolutely get the db meter...it's hard to give more than an opinion without it), and tucked the numbers away for future use.  After spending some time establishing a relationship with the band, I stopped a rehearsal and asked for a favor.  They were playing an up-tempo song, but I told them I was turning the monitors off, and would they—just as an exercise--try to play that same song as a soft number, just listening to each other acoustically.  After they did that, I asked them what they really needed in the monitors, and just brought that up.  We progressed from there.  It was a reset of sorts.  The band was so worn out from fighting the monitor mixes that they’d forgotten that they really liked playing worship music.  When they really keyed into each other, it turned out that they didn’t need so much in the wedges, and that the sheer volume level of the monitors was actually part of the problem.  I gave them a homework assignment that week; to go listen to music…really listen to music, picking out the parts and hearing the interaction between the voices.  Next week’s rehearsal went much better.

I wish I could say it was all rosy from there, but monitor creep is an insidious thing, and you will need to go round that block again.  At one point I brought the band out into the pews, put a soundtrack into the monitors and cranked it up to the level that was coming off the stage.  They were appalled.

In any sanctuary, there will be a volume level at which sympathetic resonance in the room starts to distort the sound.  Beyond that point there is only acoustic mud.  Treating the room helps…if you can figure out how to do it right (a very big if).  But the bottom line is that the band will need to learn to play below the room’s distortion threshold for things to sound good.  It’s not easy, but it can be done.  I have a good-sized collection of live concert DVDs and one thing I’ve noticed is that the pros always manage to get a “huge” sound without overplaying their instruments, or necessarily being loud.  It’s the difference between volume and intensity.  One is cardboard, and the other is fresh-baked pizza.  Others have advised on the gear/technical side of things.  Don’t forget the human side as well.
Cheers, Walt

[Brad Weber]

The musicians claim they cannot hear, then once I get it turned up where they can hear, the sound is loud to the congrgation, even without any mains.  Then when I get the mains turned up where they overpower the Monitor sound bouncing off the back wall the overall sound is way too loud.

Some rather interesting comments offered.  The technical aspects are a bit difficult to address without knowing what the space, system, band, etc. are like.  There are many factors such as the use of amps on stage, the physical relationships of the performers, the acoustics of the space, the monitor and mic relationships and so on that could be relevant and might be improved, so any information you can provide there would likely help.
 
There is definitely a human side to it as well but that is often a two-way street.  The band indeed needs to know that the tech is working with them and they are all after the same result.  At the same time, the band needs to trust the tech and let them do their job.  The band also needs to remember that they are a part of a worship service that is for everyone.  Some musicians may be used to performing for an audience while others may be more used to playing for themselves and this can affect what is expected from the monitors.  The intent of monitors is not supposed to be to create the audience experience on stage, the intent is to help the performers be able to perform.  The goal is not for the musicians to hear everything but rather to hear what they need or want to hear.
 
If a guitar player is a couple of feet from their amp and they are expecting to hear a mix similar to what the audience hears, that typically ends up requiring very high levels of almost everything else in their monitor.  In that case, some combination of reducing their amp level and/or what is in their monitor mix may be required.   Another common problem is that if you are limited in the number of monitor mixes possible such that different performers have to share monitors or monitor mixes then you often end up with monitors that require both more content and greater level.

[Dave Vercoe]

This seems to be a battle for many sound techs, but in our smaller church I am really battling Monitor vs. House Sound Levels.

The musicians claim they cannot hear, then once I get it turned up where they can hear, the sound is loud to the congrgation, even without any mains.  Then when I get the mains turned up where they overpower the Monitor sound bouncing off the back wall the overall sound is way too loud.

I am thinking iof buying an inexpensive sound level meter, to be able to tell exactly how loud it is.


I know that our monitors are outdated, but as far as their quality I have no experience to be able to grade them on comparison.


Personal IEM are not really an option, as I know this would be the best solution, but I was wonding if when we get a new Mixer with more than 2 AUX sends, if stage sound level could be brought down, by adding more monitors which are physically closer to the person, and then I could only send exactly what they need to hear and not what everybody needs to hear.

I am open to any solutions, this was just an idea of mine, but I am not sure if this will improve the situation at all.

placement of your floor monitors is another good thing to look at. if you place them at the right angles you cal actually bounce the sound waves off the wall behind the worship team and not have them so loud which what I am talking about is making it so you trap what is coming from the floor monitors on your stage area. What is the placement of the worship team to the monitors. This is a problem I have with one of the two worship teams at my church they always want the monitors louder because "they can not hear what is coming from them" and their problem really is that they are standing  to close to them and I try to let them know this. I know it may sound stupid but if they are standing to close to the monitors you will have to push the monitor levels louder because they will be hearing out of their knees and the last time I checked our ears are on our heads not our knees so the solution maybe as simple as they need to move back from the monitors. I once read I believe it was an article on pro sound web that the singer should have a clear view down the throat of the monitor that is to say about how far they should be standing from the floor monitor.
dave

[Tom Roche]

Set the vocal level in the house, then add vocals to the monitors.  Obtain a reasonable balance and level, then have them bring up their instruments on stage.  Any and all amplifiers should be pointed towards the players ears, not out at the audience.  Tilt-backs or amp stands will help.  If and when they cannot hear the vocal monitors, turn the amps back down until they can rather than boosting the monitor level.  If they can't accept this, get new musicians.......

+1  Well said, Dick.

[ProSoundWeb Community]