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Author Topic: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?  (Read 12108 times)

Dan Mortensen

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2014, 04:39:10 pm »

OK see what you mean - but unless the state was saved instantly every time a change was made you could have the same problem even if the save state cycle was shorter.
BUT again from my perspective I would rather go back to the last state saved ( so it is as close to the last settings I had) rather than the last scene I loaded - If I were doing critical changes then I should save it to the/a scene as I go along - but there could even be an outage during this.

The weak point is not really the x32 - it is the power supply to the unit that needs to be consistent to avoid outages - if you are suddenly rebooting during a show then in your scenarios is the fact that you revert to the state that happens to be the previous scene you were on a real big deal if all you have to do is quickly check which scene you want to be on and reload if necessary for your already disrupted performance to continue.



Don't know where the weak point is, but I guess it seems to be arguable and open to opinion whether you want it to come back in the last loaded state or the last auto-saved state, which could be two different things.

I did a show a couple weeks ago where we were globally changing sources, i.e., one song the sources were a couple of S16's, another was the local XLR's, etc.. If my double conversion UPS crapped out and the console rebooted into the wrong sources, what was already bad would have been a lot worse.

I agree that it may be asking too much to ask it to constantly and instantly auto-save, although other people seem to be saying that other consoles do it; I think I would settle for a Cue Load action to automatically trigger an auto-save action. Then at least you are in the ballpark of where you were minus any changes in the previous two minutes, if worst came to worst.

And while I also agree that we are talking about a situation that may never occur for most people, I think it's important to fully understand what the console is doing and capable of doing in order to be a better operator/engineer, and that's why I'm contributing to the belaboring of this point. And other points.

Thanks,
Dan
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2014, 04:48:02 pm »

OK see what you mean - but unless the state was saved instantly every time a change was made you could have the same problem even if the save state cycle was shorter.
BUT again from my perspective I would rather go back to the last state saved ( so it is as close to the last settings I had) rather than the last scene I loaded - If I were doing critical changes then I should save it to the/a scene as I go along - but there could even be an outage during this.

This is exactly what every other contemporary digital mixer does - save to buffer the state of the mixer whenever ANY control is manipulated.  It can be a delta modulation (where only the differences are recorded).

The issue here is simply that Behringer hasn't done (can't figure out, doesn't want to, or the device simply cannot do it) what every other digital mixer sold today can do: come back exactly the way it was when the power went down...

No excuses, no bullshit.  As an X32 owner I want this fixed, it's a deal breaker and my desk will be for sale if Uli cant fix this.
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Nick Davis

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2014, 04:54:56 pm »

Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)


« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 04:58:31 pm by Nick Davis »
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2014, 05:12:33 pm »

Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

Dan is understanding that the Behringer system auto-saves every two minutes.

If that can be modified, I want what Tim wants.

If it can't, I want every Cue and Scene load to be also an auto-save, so that if the power went off 2 seconds after the Cue loaded, that last Cue load would be the saved state at reboot.

I'd hoped that my example in my last post would be reason enough to show why I want the last loaded scene at least to be the reboot state, but apparently I was wrong.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2014, 05:30:40 pm »

Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

I own several UPS and I'm a firm believer in them, mostly for the AVR features, but that's not the point here.  Shit can, does, and will happen particularly at the worst possible moment, including UPS failure.

Again, this is about Behringer making their product work the way it needs to work, not applying a $200 band-aid.
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Luke Geis

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2014, 05:32:53 pm »

Perhaps my experience is different? But mine as I recall, will load up the last change that I made. I.E. If i suddenly loose power, the next boot will bring up what was going on at the moment the machine was shut down. This is with the 1.15 firmware.

Try this and report back.

1. Turn on and recall a scene that is different from the one that is currently loaded.

2. Make some changes to the current scene and sit on it for a few minutes.

3. Just before you pull the power cord on the unit, make a change that you know you can remember. Perhaps a channel all the way up or something?

4. Now turn off the switch before you plug the power back in and then turn the mixer back on in the proper manor.

5. Note what state the mixer boots back up in. Is the last change you made still active or not?

In the case of a production where your running through several scenes, I still don't see a big issue if it doesn't come right back. It only takes a moment to recall the correct scene. If you loose power mid show, your going to have to get re-situated anyway. That means going back to the last cue and getting back on track. In any case where the shows life depends on uninterrupted flow, you should probably also have uninterrupted power! This would at least buy you the time to get the power back on without loosing the mixers position in the show.

I don't think it's common to loose power mid show, but am certain it happens. In 10 years of doing this I have never lost power to FOH. I am lucky perhaps? When it counts I use an UPS at FOH to at least buy time for the IF........
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2014, 05:33:42 pm »

Am I getting this right - Dan wants to go back to the last Loaded state (i.e. Scene that was last loaded) and Tim wants to go to the exact last change (state) that was made to the millisecond?



( solution -tongue in cheek - Dan reload the scene you want to be on, and Tim get a good ups!)

I guess you would rather live with the shortcomings rather than ask that they be fixed. This whole discussion is a complete non issue on every other digital console. With Yamaha it goes a step farther. There is a nonvolatile buffer with the current state, as well as a buffer with the previous (unsaved) state, so you can use the "undo" button. Both of these are in addition to any saved states. On any power down, whether intentional or not the console returns to the last state it was in, saved or not.

A UPS wouldn't help Tim if it was the only source of power and the UPS failed.

I have had power go down on shows due to local power grid outage, stagehand unplugging wrong cable, badly seated CamLok, and a faulty 200A 3 circuit breaker. It is not blue skying to worry about how a system behaves under adverse conditions, it is professional behavior.

Mac
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2014, 06:40:08 pm »


Try this and report back.

1. Turn on and recall a scene that is different from the one that is currently loaded.

2. Make some changes to the current scene and sit on it for a few minutes.

3. Just before you pull the power cord on the unit, make a change that you know you can remember. Perhaps a channel all the way up or something?

4. Now turn off the switch before you plug the power back in and then turn the mixer back on in the proper manor.

5. Note what state the mixer boots back up in. Is the last change you made still active or not?



Doing this repeatedly in 2.02 always results in the console going back to your step #2.

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Nick Davis

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2014, 07:10:04 pm »

I'd hoped that my example in my last post would be reason enough to show why I want the last loaded scene at least to be the reboot state, but apparently I was wrong.

Yes all your posts have made that perfectly clear - but what you seemed to be saying is that
if you loaded a new scene and the console went down before 2 minutes the previous scenes was loaded - and this is not the case it is last state saved - which you now seem to accept - and this is what made me reply to your assumptions as they appeared to me to be wrong and misleading.

To force a state save when a scene, or cue of snippet is loaded is not a bad idea ( but also continuing with the periodic automatic state save) and would serve  both your and others (including my) needs.

The issue of how frequent state saves should be may or may not be a dsp consideration - and one has to remember that this is a relative cheap console albeit with a lot of very good features that previously you would have to pay a lot more money for - but there undoubtedly have to be some compromises.
Shit does happen - but you cannot account for all shit in advance - you can minimise it as far as is practical within limits of processing power and indeed money - you just need to be alert to deal with it if it happens.

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Nick Davis

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Re: X32 2.02 Firmware..... Likes and issues?
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2014, 07:33:21 pm »

I guess you would rather live with the shortcomings rather than ask that they be fixed.

No don't mind it being fixed - but to me not a major issue - my main concern in this discussion was that the last state saved should be loaded and not have a reversion to the last loaded scene ( to my mind that would be a really retrograde "fix")- If the state can be saved more frequently then I have no problems with that.

Quote
This whole discussion is a complete non issue on every other digital console. With Yamaha it goes a step farther. There is a nonvolatile buffer with the current state, as well as a buffer with the previous (unsaved) state, so you can use the "undo" button. Both of these are in addition to any saved states. On any power down, whether intentional or not the console returns to the last state it was in, saved or not.

OK that would be very welcome and what is the relative price of these

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A UPS wouldn't help Tim if it was the only source of power and the UPS failed.
Ugh!- you could argue a UPS would not help tim for very long if there was a major power outage for the area.[/quote]

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I have had power go down on shows due to local power grid outage

well no a UPS would not help here - but when the power returned - I am sure there would be some time to get everything switched back on and sorted -or are the band standing there for however long the grid is out ready to thrash the next chord the instance the lights come back on [/quote]

Quote
stagehand unplugging wrong cable, badly seated CamLok, and a faulty 200A 3 circuit breaker. It is not blue skying to worry about how a system behaves under adverse conditions, it is professional behaviour
seems there are a lot of other things you need to sort out ,check and police before you worry about the console not being returned to exact state - or do you just sit there and say "what the F*** .. I'll be ready to go as my console will be fine"  until someone else sorts it out
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 07:42:11 pm by Nick Davis »
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