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[Jon Ness]

Hello.  Newb here 
I have a "can I do this?" question for someone, anyone! I have a Band that plays clubs, and I am using a Carvin 12 channel Mixer with four internal power amps. 1 & 2 are L-R Mains, 3 & 4 are separate Monitor signals. There are four female insert jacks above the corresponding Speaker outputs, one for each of the four Amps. I have limited space in my rack, and a limited budget. I have a dual 31 band EQ that I would really like to employ on both Monitors and Mains if possible. I am interested in using ch 1 for Both L-R Mains, and ch 2 for both Monitor mixes. If I connect the send and return ends of the Insert Cables to the Dual EQ, I come up with two TRS Male plugs that each need to go to two places. Can I split the TRS signal into two separate TRS signals which are identical, effectively allowing me to use one channel of the EQ to be applied to two amp insert points? I was thinking of wiring a special cable to do this, using a Stereo 1/4" Female end, splitting the TRS signal into two Male TRS plugs. Is this possible, and are there any phase or ground issues in wiring something this way? Or have I confused everyone so much that they don't want to hear it anymore? haha. sorry

[Mac Kerr]

Hello.  Newb here 

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac

[Jon Ness]

Thank you for moving my post and redundantly informing me of my gross negligence. dangit. so much for good first impressions. Really sorry here, I am sure that happens a lot. I was just so excited to find this place, and am really looking forward to the wealth of knowledge to be gained here. Been playing in bands for 27 years, and running sound for many of them. Sorry to be in such a dang hurry that I did not read appropriate posting and forum etiquette. This post will self destruct in 30 seconds. Or can be deleted, if necessary. Again, my honest apologies. I do not have immediate notice for emails, and don't get a chance to check it readily, so I am sorry if I am slow at responding, I am probably in the other building working on Machines or CNC or whatever I'm busy with.
*still glad to be here*

[Ray Aberle]

Thank you for moving my post and redundantly informing me of my gross negligence. dangit. so much for good first impressions. Really sorry here, I am sure that happens a lot. I was just so excited to find this place, and am really looking forward to the wealth of knowledge to be gained here. Been playing in bands for 27 years, and running sound for many of them. Sorry to be in such a dang hurry that I did not read appropriate posting and forum etiquette. This post will self destruct in 30 seconds. Or can be deleted, if necessary. Again, my honest apologies. I do not have immediate notice for emails, and don't get a chance to check it readily, so I am sorry if I am slow at responding, I am probably in the other building working on Machines or CNC or whatever I'm busy with.
*still glad to be here*

Jon, no worries! It is common for people to neglect to make that change right off the bat. We ask for real names here as there's no "hiding" in pro audio. Stand behind what you say, and be proud of it-- have an open mind, use the search function then ask questions, and know that you may need a thick skin at times. However, if you post questions just looking for validation of something you have already decided in your mind, you won't have fun here!!

Anyways, with your (now locked) question... punch your two channels of EQ onto your monitor channels. Don't worry about the mains for now, until you can get another EQ. Trying to 'group' your monitors into one insert means that something that might be affecting one mix isn't present in the other mix, but your 'grouping' means you're applying the same medicine to both wounds, even though their symptoms are different! That could easily cause a cascade effect of more issues to deal with.

-Ray

[Jon Ness]

Jon, no worries! It is common for people to neglect to make that change right off the bat. We ask for real names here as there's no "hiding" in pro audio. Stand behind what you say, and be proud of it-- have an open mind, use the search function then ask questions, and know that you may need a thick skin at times. However, if you post questions just looking for validation of something you have already decided in your mind, you won't have fun here!!

Anyways, with your (now locked) question... punch your two channels of EQ onto your monitor channels. Don't worry about the mains for now, until you can get another EQ. Trying to 'group' your monitors into one insert means that something that might be affecting one mix isn't present in the other mix, but your 'grouping' means you're applying the same medicine to both wounds, even though their symptoms are different! That could easily cause a cascade effect of more issues to deal with.

-Ray

Thank you Ray. I am currently using two dual 31 band EQ's and four insert cables. I need the EQ's on the Mains because the Cabs are not the greatest, and I can get much better presence with the right EQ settings. I need EQ on my monitors to boost the heard frequencies, if that makes sense, because my bassist needs more vocal monitor. All 4 of my monitors are the same, and the EQ settings are the same, I just have 1 mix normal, and his mix with him boosted 
The reason I need to simplify, is basically a space issue. I don't have room in my rack for two dual 31 band EQ's, and the settings are identical, so it seems redundant. I need the space more than the extra EQ. I understand it may not be ideal, but am just curious if you can get away with doubling the TRS signals. Thanks for the communication.

[Steve M Smith]

Unless you have a need to run stereo, you can run left into one eq then connect its output to both the left and right amp.

Unfortunately this doesn't save any space unless you do the same with the monitors.  i.e. one send into one eq then out to two amps.

I need EQ on my monitors to boost the heard frequencies, if that makes sense

Not really.  It's more usual to use a graphic to notch out troublesome frequencies which can lead to feedback.  When there is a resonance due to the combination of room and speaker response, the graphic is use to flatten out the response.


Steve.

[Geoff Doane]

The reason I need to simplify, is basically a space issue. I don't have room in my rack for two dual 31 band EQ's, and the settings are identical, so it seems redundant. I need the space more than the extra EQ. I understand it may not be ideal, but am just curious if you can get away with doubling the TRS signals. Thanks for the communication.

There is no way to get two independent channels out of a mono EQ, or 4 channels out of a stereo one.

The best I can suggest is a stereo EQ that only has one set of sliders, but they control both channels.  Rane makes (made?) one in the Mojo series IIRC, and BearRinger has a digital stereo graphic that only has one set of sliders.  However, the BearRinger is 2 spaces to start with, so not exactly compact, and I think the Rane was only 15 bands, so another compromise there.

GTD

[Ray Aberle]

Unless you have a need to run stereo, you can run left into one eq then connect its output to both the left and right amp.

Unfortunately this doesn't save any space unless you do the same with the monitors.  i.e. one send into one eq then out to two amps.


Steve.

Without pulling a spec of the powered mixer he is using, it sounds like there's four inserts for -- 1ea L and R mains, 1 ea L and R aux sends. So, he's only working with one insert per channel, instead of being able to mono from the mixer and split to multiple amps.

Basically, he would like to use a custom cable to insert EQ into two spots at the same time. So one channel of the EQ is inserting into LR Mains, and the other channel is inserting into the two aux sends. Sounds like they do not have to be independent.

Of course, Jon, the configuration you are looking for also means you will no longer be able to EQ Aux2 for the extra-loud person separately......

To be candid, I would just get another small rack with enough room for AC, a patch panel, and your two EQs mounted in it.

-Ray

[Steve M Smith]

Without pulling a spec of the powered mixer he is using, it sounds like there's four inserts for -- 1ea L and R mains, 1 ea L and R aux sends. So, he's only working with one insert per channel, instead of being able to mono from the mixer and split to multiple amps.

Ah yes, it would require some custom cables to be made.


Steve.

[Samuel Rees]

You definitely can't get 2 channels of EQ out of one channel of EQ, ever. You are pointing out that the EQ may be the same on both sides - but you are forgetting that the audio that flows through them isn't!

[frank kayser]

There is no way to get two independent channels out of a mono EQ, or 4 channels out of a stereo one.

The best I can suggest is a stereo EQ that only has one set of sliders, but they control both channels.  Rane makes (made?) one in the Mojo series IIRC, and BearRinger has a digital stereo graphic that only has one set of sliders.  However, the BearRinger is 2 spaces to start with, so not exactly compact, and I think the Rane was only 15 bands, so another compromise there.

GTD

Rane did indeed make a 31 band stereo eq all in one rack space.  Usually available on e-bay for under $70.  If you care to get one, be careful to get the MOJO and not their look-alike mono version.
frank

[Jon Ness]

Without pulling a spec of the powered mixer he is using, it sounds like there's four inserts for -- 1ea L and R mains, 1 ea L and R aux sends. So, he's only working with one insert per channel, instead of being able to mono from the mixer and split to multiple amps.

Basically, he would like to use a custom cable to insert EQ into two spots at the same time. So one channel of the EQ is inserting into LR Mains, and the other channel is inserting into the two aux sends. Sounds like they do not have to be independent.

Of course, Jon, the configuration you are looking for also means you will no longer be able to EQ Aux2 for the extra-loud person separately......

To be candid, I would just get another small rack with enough room for AC, a patch panel, and your two EQs mounted in it.

-Ray

Yes, Ray, that is the insert situation. I only have one for each of the four power amps. They do not have to be independent. I know it sounds odd, but the volume we play at is medium, and I rarely ever have any feedback issues at all. I prefer to use my EQ's to Mold my sound, as I really don't have to deal with feedback. Very rare, and usually I slightly adjust gain to remove feedback. jsyk, the EQ's are the only outboard equipment I use on our mix. No effects, gates, compressors, or anything like that. There is an internal effects processor in the Mixer that I set with slight reverb for the mains vocals. Sounds great, and I love it. But, 1. I need space in my vehicle, so another rack will not work. and 2. I do not want to patch the inserts up at every show. I want the mixer and EQ in the same rack, so I can leave the inserts plugged in for quicker set up and tear down. Don't ask for much, do I?

So, back to my original question... Can I make my own custom Y cable that has one Female TRS (Switchcraft 1238) and two Male TRS Plugs? This way I can send Channel 1 of EQ to both L-R main insert points, and Channel 2 of EQ to both Monitor insert points. I understand that the signal is not the same that goes through each, but there are also four 7-band graphic EQ's built into the Mixer, one for each power amp. If I need to do slightly different EQ settings for the 4 separate power amps, I can tweak their individual EQ's. Sound plausible?

[Ray Aberle]

Yes, Ray, that is the insert situation. I only have one for each of the four power amps. They do not have to be independent. I know it sounds odd, but the volume we play at is medium, and I rarely ever have any feedback issues at all. I prefer to use my EQ's to Mold my sound, as I really don't have to deal with feedback. Very rare, and usually I slightly adjust gain to remove feedback. jsyk, the EQ's are the only outboard equipment I use on our mix. No effects, gates, compressors, or anything like that. There is an internal effects processor in the Mixer that I set with slight reverb for the mains vocals. Sounds great, and I love it. But, 1. I need space in my vehicle, so another rack will not work. and 2. I do not want to patch the inserts up at every show. I want the mixer and EQ in the same rack, so I can leave the inserts plugged in for quicker set up and tear down. Don't ask for much, do I?

So, back to my original question... Can I make my own custom Y cable that has one Female TRS (Switchcraft 1238) and two Male TRS Plugs? This way I can send Channel 1 of EQ to both L-R main insert points, and Channel 2 of EQ to both Monitor insert points. I understand that the signal is not the same that goes through each, but there are also four 7-band graphic EQ's built into the Mixer, one for each power amp. If I need to do slightly different EQ settings for the 4 separate power amps, I can tweak their individual EQ's. Sound plausible?

The problem with this is that you already mentioned you boost signal for your one performer (the bassist?) who needs a hotter signal. By using Channel 2 of only one EQ unit, you will no longer have the ability to boost his signal (or certain frequencies) without affecting the other monitors. Is that OK with you?

-Ray

[Jerome Malsack]

Another solution might be to find a digital multi channel eq. 

http://alesis.com/deq830

This is eight channel in a 1U rack mount.   

[Scott Olewiler]

Hello.  Newb here 
I have a "can I do this?" question for someone, anyone! I have a Band that plays clubs, and I am using a Carvin 12 channel Mixer with four internal power amps. 1 & 2 are L-R Mains, 3 & 4 are separate Monitor signals. There are four female insert jacks above the corresponding Speaker outputs, one for each of the four Amps. I have limited space in my rack, and a limited budget. I have a dual 31 band EQ that I would really like to employ on both Monitors and Mains if possible. I am interested in using ch 1 for Both L-R Mains, and ch 2 for both Monitor mixes. If I connect the send and return ends of the Insert Cables to the Dual EQ, I come up with two TRS Male plugs that each need to go to two places. Can I split the TRS signal into two separate TRS signals which are identical, effectively allowing me to use one channel of the EQ to be applied to two amp insertpoints? I was thinking of wiring a special cable to do this, using a Stereo 1/4" Female end, splitting the TRS signal into two Male TRS plugs. Is this possible, and are there any phase or ground issues in wiring something this way? Or have I confused everyone so much that they don't want to hear it anymore? haha. sorry

If you just need to turn the bassist monitor speaker up more you can do this without any custom made cables. If he wants just HIS microphone louder in his monitor you can't do it at all with one eq channel. You can not combine the two monitor sends eq them and then separate them after. If you want to send monitor one to the eq using an insert cable and then send the return signal back to both monitor amps you can do that with a one female dual male 1/4 cable. Plug one male into the out side of the eq,the return of the insert cable into the female plug and the other male into the insert jack of the monitor two amp. You Can only mix the individual channels on MON 1 but you can control the master monitor volumes separately and still use the 7 band Eqs if you need additional eq changes but I wouldn't recommend it. Of course if you hook the mains up the same way you get what you want there regardless of the monitor situation. I own the mixer you're talking about. I keep it as a spare piece of equipment because you can use in a variety of way due to this inserts on the four amps.

[Jon Ness]

The problem with this is that you already mentioned you boost signal for your one performer (the bassist?) who needs a hotter signal. By using Channel 2 of only one EQ unit, you will no longer have the ability to boost his signal (or certain frequencies) without affecting the other monitors. Is that OK with you?

-Ray

Not sure Ray. I use the 2 monitor signals to run 4 monitors(2 a side) with 2 mixes. So are you saying I can't run 2 monitor mixes by using a custom 1/4" female TRS to two 1/4" male TRS cable?

Jerome that Alesis looks sweet! 8 EQ's yeah. Little expensive for me, but wow I like that. Most of the digital EQ's I've seen are hard to adjust on the fly. I need to be able to adjust frequencies on any EQ between hammer-ons and Power Chords during the song, y'know? real quick-like....

Scott I do love this Mixer it is so practical and flexible for my needs. I do tend to use outside power amps... which, I actually am using a QSC 1500 for the monitors right now. I am beginning to realize why I cant send two mon signals into one EQ and then split them again. Okay I am a little slow at Physics, but I see. I am SOL, am I not? Really I just need to talk my wife into A family purchase of a nice big cargo van, and then space will no longer be an issue. probably not happening though.

Thanks for letting me waste your time on this one guys, sorry. I am open to any ideas, however crazy they may be. Thanks for the help, it is very appreciated.

[Ray Aberle]

Not sure Ray. I use the 2 monitor signals to run 4 monitors(2 a side) with 2 mixes. So are you saying I can't run 2 monitor mixes by using a custom 1/4" female TRS to two 1/4" male TRS cable?

Well, pretty much. If you use the same EQ to process both of your monitor mixes, you only have one set of EQs for that signal chain. So, what you do to Mix 1 is also applied to Mix 2. You will not be able to have that boost to your bassist's signal.

Thanks for letting me waste your time on this one guys, sorry. I am open to any ideas, however crazy they may be. Thanks for the help, it is very appreciated.

Never a waste of time! As I mentioned before, having an open mind and asking questions is super vital!

The DEQ that Jerome mentioned is a great idea-- and I should have thought about it, since I have one of those units... Haha. I just never use it anymore. So I guess it could be for sale?

-Ray

[duane massey]

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious. If you connect Mon 1 and 2 you cannot separate them again, so there would no longer be 2 mixes, just one combined. Same goes for the mains. Not really a good idea on several levels.
Do you really need  a 1/3 octave? DBX (as well as other brands) makes a dual 15-cha EQ in a single rack version. For general tone shaping these are quite adequate.
I've never used the Alesis but it seems to be a useable device.

[Steve M Smith]

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious. If you connect Mon 1 and 2 you cannot separate them again

It's been mentioned many times!

The easiest way to understand this is to draw it out as a block diagram and connect it up with pencil lines.  An output can feed into any number of inputs but no input can receive the signal from more than one output.


Steve,

[Scott Olewiler]

Hello.  Newb here 
I have a "can I do this?" question for someone, anyone! I have a Band that plays clubs, and I am using a Carvin 12 channel Mixer with four internal power amps. 1 & 2 are L-R Mains, 3 & 4 are separate Monitor signals. There are four female insert jacks above the corresponding Speaker outputs, one for each of the four Amps. I have limited space in my rack, and a limited budget. I have a dual 31 band EQ that I would really like to employ on both Monitors and Mains if possible. I am interested in using ch 1 for Both L-R Mains, and ch 2 for both Monitor mixes. If I connect the send and return ends of the Insert Cables to the Dual EQ, I come up with two TRS Male plugs that each need to go to two places. Can I split the TRS signal into two separate TRS signals which are identical, effectively allowing me to use one channel of the EQ to be applied to two amp insert points? I was thinking of wiring a special cable to do this, using a Stereo 1/4" Female end, splitting the TRS signal into two Male TRS plugs. Is this possible, and are there any phase or ground issues in wiring something this way? Or have I confused everyone so much that they don't want to hear it anymore? haha. sorry

Jon,

Since rack space is the issue, no one asked the obvious question, what dual EQs are you using now? Some take up 2 rack spaces and others take up 4. I think we all assume you're already using ones that only take 2 spaces, but that would be good to check off. So iassume your trying get a total of 4 spaces down to 2.

2 of these; Behringer DEQ2496, will do what you want in 2 spaces.

[Scott Olewiler]

Hello.  Newb here 
I have a "can I do this?" question for someone, anyone! I have a Band that plays clubs, and I am using a Carvin 12 channel Mixer with four internal power amps. 1 & 2 are L-R Mains, 3 & 4 are separate Monitor signals. There are four female insert jacks above the corresponding Speaker outputs, one for each of the four Amps. I have limited space in my rack, and a limited budget. I have a dual 31 band EQ that I would really like to employ on both Monitors and Mains if possible. I am interested in using ch 1 for Both L-R Mains, and ch 2 for both Monitor mixes. If I connect the send and return ends of the Insert Cables to the Dual EQ, I come up with two TRS Male plugs that each need to go to two places. Can I split the TRS signal into two separate TRS signals which are identical, effectively allowing me to use one channel of the EQ to be applied to two amp insert points? I was thinking of wiring a special cable to do this, using a Stereo 1/4" Female end, splitting the TRS signal into two Male TRS plugs. Is this possible, and are there any phase or ground issues in wiring something this way? Or have I confused everyone so much that they don't want to hear it anymore? haha. sorry

And this will do what you want in only 1 rack space:

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/EQ430

Word of caution, you can not use a TRS to XLR cable to connect the insert jack of the Amp in the mixer to the XLR ins on either of the two devices I mentioned. You'll need to use a standard 1/4" insert cable and then a 1/4" male to XLR adapter on the send plug to go into the input. Has to be done that way even if you're using external amplifiers. TRS insert jack does not function the same as a TRS balanced output.

[Jon Ness]

And this will do what you want in only 1 rack space:

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/EQ430

Word of caution, you can not use a TRS to XLR cable to connect the insert jack of the Amp in the mixer to the XLR ins on either of the two devices I mentioned. You'll need to use a standard 1/4" insert cable and then a 1/4" male to XLR adapter on the send plug to go into the input. Has to be done that way even if you're using external amplifiers. TRS insert jack does not function the same as a TRS balanced output.

Wow thanks guys!
Duane, yes I realize the obvious now, I was a little slow on the concept, but I get it now. Of course I can't combine 2 signals and EQ it and separate them again. Steve is correct it has been mentioned, heh. FWIW I have a dual 15 band single rack space behringer right now, but I much prefer the 31 band. I don't know why, but I just really like tone shaping with the 31 band as opposed to the 15 band. And yes, right now I am using two dual 31 band EQ's, and each is taking up 2 rack spaces.

Scott. I do like the Behringers, but they are $300 apiece, and I can't afford two of them. But...the Carvin 4 channel EQ looks amazing. I like Carvin better than Behringer anyways, and it looks easier to operate on the fly. I do have to think about changing EQ settings during a song, since I am our guitarist/singer and soundman. Also, I currently use 4 standard insert cables, all with 1/4" males all around, so I don't think connectivity will be an issue. Plus, the Carvin is $349 or so. I am really leaning towards that fella. I ultimately wish to purchase the Carvin 4 channel 2 rack space power amp, too, so I guess I better start saving my money!

Thanks for all your help guys. Much appreciated.

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