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Author Topic: Yamaha CL V2 wish list  (Read 3995 times)

Riley Casey

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2014, 04:11:56 pm »

I'm perfectly happy with groups and auxes and matrices, they make excellent paradigms for thinking of signal path structure.  I'd just like console makers to realize that its no longer done with ribbon cables and build out resistors, its just software.  Lets treat it accordingly and let the user change the configurations to meet the needs of the moment.

Then there is this from the press release : "states Marc Lopez, Marketing Manager, Yamaha Commercial Audio Systems, Inc. “Future plans include built-in Dugan automatic mixing similar to the new QL Series".  First, does this mean the Dugan software is going to be a part of V2 firmware or still in the future plans?  More to the point is Yamaha really about to give away for free what they currently get more than two grand for?  That is so unYamaha-like that I gotta think there is a gotcha there somewhere.

I wish console manufacturers would once and for all stop designing consoles as though they were still analogue when it comes to buses.
There should be Inputs and outputs.
No auxes, groups, matrices, or masters.
Every input and bus can be sent to any other bus pre or post anywhere.
It's even more ridiculous on consoles like the DiGiCo (and I think Avid) that you have to decide before you build a show file what your buses will be.
It's high time they stop thinking in analogue terms and allow maximum flexibility.

Andrew Broughton

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2014, 04:34:47 pm »

I'm perfectly happy with groups and auxes and matrices, they make excellent paradigms for thinking of signal path structure.
Unfortunately, this sort of thinking and no push to change this paradigm just helps support manufacturers building in limitations in their consoles. Real change for the better comes when people stop saying "well, that's just the way it's always been done." I see no reason to cling to the old "analogue-esq" except as a crutch for those that are easily confused.
See here as an example of what can be done when people throw away the "old ways" and think outside the box.

However, in thinking about this more, the console software could be set up with presets that build sends as though they are groups or auxes, but only as a preset or macro, so that you can change anything manually afterwards if you change your mind, but without any reconfiguring.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 04:43:10 pm by Andrew Broughton »
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2014, 06:50:42 pm »

Then there is this from the press release : "states Marc Lopez, Marketing Manager, Yamaha Commercial Audio Systems, Inc. “Future plans include built-in Dugan automatic mixing similar to the new QL Series".  First, does this mean the Dugan software is going to be a part of V2 firmware or still in the future plans?  More to the point is Yamaha really about to give away for free what they currently get more than two grand for?  That is so unYamaha-like that I gotta think there is a gotcha there somewhere.

Perhaps they "gave it away" on QL to get more mid-level users to want the Dugan functionality, then they'll sell it as an upgrade to CL, etc, costing less than the card (plus you don't lose a card slot) - similar to the VCM effects upgrades to previous mixers.

The cards will still be usable in DMEs and DM2Ks, etc, for some time to come.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2014, 02:31:25 am »

I'm perfectly happy with groups and auxes and matrices, they make excellent paradigms for thinking of signal path structure.  I'd just like console makers to realize that its no longer done with ribbon cables and build out resistors, its just software.

But alas, it isn't just software - at least according to the Midas folks who told us that their digital consoles cannot have the option of pre-eq/dynamics bus sends added via a firmware upgrade.
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2014, 04:13:56 am »

But alas, it isn't just software - at least according to the Midas folks who told us that their digital consoles cannot have the option of pre-eq/dynamics bus sends added via a firmware upgrade.

On the other hand, Digico allows you to sacifice mixes to get moe input channels, so...
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2014, 04:42:50 am »

I like the way the GLD does it's layers. Any input, output, bus master, send, return or DCA can be on any layer in any location, or not - I have a couple of DCAs I use that don't appear on the surface.

+1.  Now that I've had my GLD for a few months I can confidently say the ergonomics are awesome  Any fader anywhere, or hide it (like when a DCA is used for a mute group that has been assigned to a soft key).

Move faders around the console by swiping them on the touch screen,... I can change fader locations mid show based on what is really getting used, in a second, great for festivals... An intuitive way to assign channels to axes, busses,... 

After operating an 01V96 for a decade, and still needing a laptop to efficiently setup up routing, my laptop is no longer needed.


(EDIT: Retraction, operator error, the iPad app isn't as bad as I thought...).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 05:02:35 pm by Mark McFarlane »
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2014, 07:39:43 am »

On the other hand, Digico allows you to sacifice mixes to get moe input channels, so...

You've inadvertently stumbled on one of the key differences between older DSP-style processing (as found on the Midas Pro series, pre-Neutron) and newer FPGA style processing. using pre-configured DSP chips is very cost effective, and so a lot of lower-end digital consoles have been made that way for years (pretty much every live console is lower-end as compared to the spectrum of consoles accross the market). The tradeoff here is that you configure the chips with functionality when you manufacture the boards. So you are fixing limits in place early on.

The FPGA (field programmable gate array) is an IC that is designed to be re-programmable by the designers after manufacture. This what allows companies like Digico who are using this technology to divvy up the available processing power however they like. The SD7 represents the limit of their current architecture by providing 256 full-processing paths (a path being a channel, either input or output, featuring their EQ, dynamics, etc...).

I believe the Yamaha's still use a slightly older-style architecture (I could be wrong), and even the new Neutron DSP is a hybrid product.

For example, when the CL came out, I spoke with some people at Yamaha and complained that there weren't 2 solo buses. This is a big deal for those of us dealing with big monitor rigs featuring both IEMs and wedges. They told me that it wasn't physically possible to just add another buss with their architecture, but they could potentiall look at a software revision where a pair of matrices could become a second solo buss...

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Tommy Peel

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2014, 11:32:21 am »


+1.  Now that I've had my GLD for a few months I can confidently say the ergonomics are awesome (except for the iPad app which currently sucks).  Any fader anywhere, or hide it (like when a DCA is used for a mute group that has been assigned to a soft key).


Move faders around the console by swiping them on the touch screen,... I can change fader locations mid show based on what is really getting used, in a second, great for festivals... An intuitive way to assign channels to axes, busses,...  .

This is how all digital consoles should be..... IMO. Give me a group of faders with scribble strips and let me put whatever I want on each layer.

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2014, 12:02:45 pm »

You've inadvertently stumbled on one of the key differences between older DSP-style processing (as found on the Midas Pro series, pre-Neutron) and newer FPGA style processing. using pre-configured DSP chips is very cost effective, and so a lot of lower-end digital consoles have been made that way for years (pretty much every live console is lower-end as compared to the spectrum of consoles accross the market). The tradeoff here is that you configure the chips with functionality when you manufacture the boards. So you are fixing limits in place early on.

The FPGA (field programmable gate array) is an IC that is designed to be re-programmable by the designers after manufacture. This what allows companies like Digico who are using this technology to divvy up the available processing power however they like. The SD7 represents the limit of their current architecture by providing 256 full-processing paths (a path being a channel, either input or output, featuring their EQ, dynamics, etc...).

I believe the Yamaha's still use a slightly older-style architecture (I could be wrong), and even the new Neutron DSP is a hybrid product.

For example, when the CL came out, I spoke with some people at Yamaha and complained that there weren't 2 solo buses. This is a big deal for those of us dealing with big monitor rigs featuring both IEMs and wedges. They told me that it wasn't physically possible to just add another buss with their architecture, but they could potentiall look at a software revision where a pair of matrices could become a second solo buss...

Thank you, that is most interesting!
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Yamaha CL V2 wish list
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2014, 12:03:02 pm »

Perhaps they "gave it away" on QL to get more mid-level users to want the Dugan functionality, then they'll sell it as an upgrade to CL, etc, costing less than the card (plus you don't lose a card slot) - similar to the VCM effects upgrades to previous mixers.

My guess would be that automixing does come to CL V2, for free. Maybe not V2.0, our rep isn't sure about that yet either.

As soon as event planners starting asking for Dugan as well as a line array all the companies still sending an LS9 will have to go buy the MY-Dugan card. Meanwhile companies buying new for that market will start putting Dugan on the feature checklist. So it's  a win either way.
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