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Author Topic: Church Sound System  (Read 37728 times)

Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2014, 09:12:12 PM »

I may can add some insight from the other side of this discussion...

It's a reflex action to speak louder and more aggressively anytime we don't hear ourselves. The thought is, if I don't hear myself then others don't hear me either. Not just in church, that's true anywhere, anytime. Even in a crowd, you speak up if you don't hear yourself because your mind is telling your mouth that what it needs to do to be heard. And we speak to be heard. You see it here on the board, people get more aggressive or are willing to walk out on the preacher because you feel like you're not being heard.

When the monitor is down, it doesn't matter how loud you speak, we still don't' hear ourselves. Isn't that the point of the monitor, so we can hear ourselves??? Why have it there if you can't hear it??? And I don't mean strain to hear it or have to concentrate or focus to hear it, I mean hear it while I do my thing.

If you speak louder and still don't hear yourself, then it's frustrating since you've done all you can do and you wish you can get others, in this case the sound man, to work with you and not against you toward the common goal of delivering a good message. The preacher has enough on his mind while preaching so the last thing he needs when trying to reach the unsaved and edify the saints, is to have this feeling in the back of his mind that he's not being heard. Entertain him, give him some monitor so he can hear himself and take that off his mind so he can then get comfortable and focus on the Word. Will it kill you to do that?

When you're yelling as loud as you can and still don't' hear yourself, you say to yourself, this is going to be a long day...  Most of us preachers know it doesn't have to be this way. After all, we spend tons of money on sound systems so it can do the work and not our voices.

I preach at least twice each Sunday and sometimes up to 4 times and here is what I've noticed, today the PA is still set the way I set it which makes our musicians mad but I came home, went to dinner with the wife and up watching Gunsmoke. When the PA is like they want it, to where the meters don't peg etc...  I come home, hit the couch and go right to sleep. I will be completely wiped. I'm also hoarse for the next couple of days. Today, not even a hit of hoarseness because the mic did the work...

Try doing it yourself, speak at the top of your voice for an hour and you may have more appreciation to what the preachers is saying to you. He's saying if he can only hear himself, not if others can hear you, if you can only hear yourself, the natural instinct to speak up won't happen and trust me, we know the difference at the end of the day. A poor or low sound system is a preacher killer...

I can see the prevailing attitude here is trust your sound man. But the truth is two fold, speaking up is a natural reaction and not something "trusting the sound man" can eliminate overnight and if the message get's ruined, if the word doesn't come across, if I yell to the point I lose my voice and have two more services to preach that day, no one ever blames the sound man. They're going to blame us, the preacher.

I have finished preaching and been told, "you need to speak up, we could hardly hear you" or "I missed that part, what did you say etc..." Again, no one blames the sound man, the preacher takes that one the chin and why, because we didn't buy enough amps, because we didn't buy a good enough mixer, no, we take that one on the chin knowing the sound man could have turn it up a bit. The members after all think the preacher is in charge so they wonder why we don't get that sound man strait. They don't say anything to the sound man, they tell the preacher and expect us to fix the sound man. In the mean time they tell you good job etc...

This isn't a dig at the sound man but a fact. I'm just hoping you can see the other side for a minute. It's hard enough spending 30 or 40 hours preparing a message to have it come back void because you thought you weren't being heard so you started yelling and killed your voice...

Chris, I believe that's what the superstar was trying to say, it's not that he doesn't care but he knows he's going to work hard all night if he doesn't hear himself. And he will try to compensate with this voice if he doesn't hear himself the way the thinks he should sound. So he makes sure his volume is the way he likes it and the sound man can take care of the rest because when the show goes live he'll be in his zone and regardless of anyone else, he wants that zone to be the way HE wants it. Now HE's comfortable which allows him to perform at his best.

And after 45 minutes just getting his monitor adjusted, do you really want his input adjusting the drums and others speakers???  This isn't an excuse for being rude or disrespectful to the sound man but do know the preacher is under a lot of pressure. No one ever joined a church or committed their life to Christ because of the sound man. And what makes tithers come back every week, the preacher....  Well, the chior but we preachers like to think we had something to do with it and the choir needs the sound system also lolol...  And if the preacher doesn't fill the seats, there won't be a need for the sound man so you really ought to work with him and not against him. So in a sense it is all about them, they're the main attraction and what we do is for the Lord so we do all we can to be at our best.

so even if you have to fool me, I prefer being fooled into my comfort zone so I can then focus on the preaching the Word than to spend my entire message thinking, "I wish that sound man would turn up my monitor so I can stop yelling into this mic". With me it's mic sensitivity, I have to have my mic where it pics me up without me speaking directly into it. Anything less than that and my mind won't fully engage into delivering the message...  I guess we all have our quirks...
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Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2014, 09:15:37 PM »

How many times have you had a musician ask for something-that you can't do-yet you "pretend" to do something and all of a sudden they are happy.

Or they ask for "more treble on the guitar" and before you can touch the knob they say "Thats fine". 

They fool themselves------------

I go to a Church in SF and the sound guy there gives me an ear-bud because in his words, he can't get the monitors the say I want it. After a couple of years of this I learned he gives everyone the ear-bud...  I thought it was just for me lol...  It worked...

But I also learned that turning up the mic to him means turning up the volume in my ear-bud...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:18:27 PM by Chuck Survine »
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David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2014, 09:42:34 PM »

you can hear yourself when you talk. What is drowning you out? The monitors do not help the audience hear. I've done events where the music artist was also the speaker. Amazing how much better the spoken word is when I turn the monitors off quite often. So the artist/speaker had me turn the monitors back on because he wanted to hear himself IN THE MONITORS. then his voice sounded bad because of all the bounce of the monitors off the back wall. Assign someone to make sure everyone can hear, tell the audience if they can't hear to talk to him. Give him(or her) responsibility AND authority. LEARN to let the mic do the work and never lose your voice. You don't need to hear yourself in the PA. If I can do it you can too.
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2014, 09:50:04 PM »

so even if you have to fool me, I prefer being fooled into my comfort zone so I can then focus on the preaching the Word than to spend my entire message thinking, "I wish that sound man would turn up my monitor so I can stop yelling into this mic". With me it's mic sensitivity, I have to have my mic where it pics me up without me speaking directly into it. Anything less than that and my mind won't fully engage into delivering the message...  I guess we all have our quirks...

Do you want to hear your monitor or do you want a mic sensitive enough to pick you up if you're not speaking directly into it? Physics is a harsh mistress and she won't allow you to have both.

Personally, I've always found it far easier to make spoken words intelligible to the congregation when I'm not fighting a whole bunch of mud coming off the back of monitor wedges on stage.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:55:33 PM by Jeff Carter »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2014, 10:29:48 PM »

I may can add some insight from the other side of this discussion...

It's a reflex action to speak louder and more aggressively anytime we don't hear ourselves. The thought is, if I don't hear myself then others don't hear me either. Not just in church, that's true anywhere, anytime. Even in a crowd, you speak up if you don't hear yourself because your mind is telling your mouth that what it needs to do to be heard.

Chuck...

As someone who at times has earned a living playing music on street corners around the world, I'd like to speak to your issues:

For centuries, people have successfully and effectively spoken to crowds...large crowds...of people without the aid of monitors or microphones.  If you're wearing out your voice even with a microphone, you're doing something wrong.

Find a professional voice coach and learn how to project effectively without damaging your instrument. Stop blaming others for your lack of professionalism.

Or just buy yourself one of the "more me" personal monitor units from Rolls, plug your mic into it and run your own ear bud(s).
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 10:46:15 PM by dick rees »
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Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2014, 01:23:58 AM »

you can hear yourself when you talk. What is drowning you out?

The audience, the music, or psychologically you expect to hear yourself through the PA. That is why I'm holding a mic.

The monitors do not help the audience hear.


Exactly, but they do help me hear me...

I've done events where the music artist was also the speaker. Amazing how much better the spoken word is when I turn the monitors off quite often.

To who, you or the speaker. I guess that's my point, you might like it but I'm sure the speaker didn't.

So the artist/speaker had me turn the monitors back on because he wanted to hear himself IN THE MONITORS. then his voice sounded bad because of all the bounce of the monitors off the back wall.

Again, that's my point, he wanted to hear himself. You might have noticed something you thought was bad but I wonder who else noticed???

When you go to a restaurant, do you want the food seasoned to the likings of the chef, or you? Do you want your steak cooked to the likings of the cook, or you? That's all I'm trying to say, I have the mic, can't we make it to my likings, at least while I'm using the mic and when you use the mic by all means make it the way you like...
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Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2014, 01:29:03 AM »

Do you want to hear your monitor or do you want a mic sensitive enough to pick you up if you're not speaking directly into it? Physics is a harsh mistress and she won't allow you to have both.

Actually, you can have both or at least a good compromise. My understanding a good EQ can incapacitate most feedback then you can turn the mic's up all the way without feedback. That's the theory and it's kind of what I have going on now bu with a 9 band EQ I am hurting too many frequencies. They say a 31 band EQ will do less harm.

Personally, I've always found it far easier to make spoken words intelligible to the congregation when I'm not fighting a whole bunch of mud coming off the back of monitor wedges on stage.

I totally understand your point, but I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person on the stage. If you don't hear yourself, it's natural to compensate and that compensating kills you physically and mentally disturbs your message. Perhaps there is a happy medium...
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Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2014, 02:11:48 AM »

Chuck...

As someone who at times has earned a living playing music on street corners around the world, I'd like to speak to your issues:

For centuries, people have successfully and effectively spoken to crowds...large crowds...of people without the aid of monitors or microphones.  If you're wearing out your voice even with a microphone, you're doing something wrong.

Could very well be but a little more mic seems to fix it. We're all built a little differently. We have a preacher with a deep baritone voice that can go without the mic for days on end. I don't happen to be him. I am normally a quite person and don't say much unless I have something that really needs saying. I guess because of that, preaching is the most work my voice gets... But point well taken...

Find a professional voice coach and learn how to project effectively without damaging your instrument. Stop blaming others for your lack of professionalism.

I have one as part of the therapy for the nodules. Her advice, in addition to warming up my voice before speaking, is to let the PA do the work. She agrees I am straining my voice so told me to forget those musicians, turn up the PA.

Or just buy yourself one of the "more me" personal monitor units from Rolls, plug your mic into it and run your own ear bud(s).

For some reason, I thought that's why we spent all that money on the PA??? Should we not buy monitors and get ear buds instead???

I guess this is where I'm coming from, we know the PA CAN do it because if you turn it up it does what we want just fine with room to spare. The question is why do the sound guys want to turn it down??? They say it sounds better but to whom, no one can hear it and everyone on the other end of the system (at the mic end) complains??? So why not figure out how to readjust the monitors etc...  so that it sounds good turned up instead of turning it down to the discomfort of the users???

It's like having a 400hp motor but your mechanic keeps tuning it down saying you don't need all that power. But you're saying, "I paid for 400hp for a reason. I could have saved a lot of money if I only wanted 200hp". But your mechanic don't listen to you, he tunes it down and tells you how your motor will last for ever like this...  And how much better the rest of the car performs at 200hp... 

That's what a lot of sound guys do in my view, we buy tons of power and they turn it down and say, "don't that sound great???"  And I'm thinking, "if it's so great, why am I losing my voice yelling for 45 minutes"...  We obviously have a different view of great...

Like I said, fool me, turn the rest of the PA off but turn my monitors up so I can hear myself and you'll never get a complaint out of me. The folks in the back might complain, but I would be content....

But then again I preach mostly in the isles so for me it's not as much about the monitors. I can hear myself, but I have to shove the mic down my throat to do it which doesn't make sense when I know I can have better. Right now our PA is up the way I like it and no feedback. Not even a slight ring. And that's with 12 mic's running wide open.

I got nothing but compliments for the two sermons I preached today. In my view, the difference was I comfortable and got into my zone because I wasn't fighting to hear myself and didn't have to eat the mic for 45 minutes... I was relaxed, made jokes, lots of eye contact and at one point laid down in the isle to show David was still in his tomb... You can't imagine what a difference the mic makes to the preacher until you've gotten on his end of the PA. Try it sometime and see don't you agree...
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David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2014, 11:18:12 AM »

Peter preached the first Christian sermon without a microphone and 3000 got saved in one day.
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2014, 11:23:46 AM »

Actually, you can have both or at least a good compromise. My understanding a good EQ can incapacitate most feedback then you can turn the mic's up all the way without feedback. That's the theory and it's kind of what I have going on now bu with a 9 band EQ I am hurting too many frequencies. They say a 31 band EQ will do less harm.
EQ isn't a panacea for feedback, sorry. You can try to EQ out one (or maybe two) nasty resonances if you like, but as soon as you try to push the gain up some other frequency will take off instead. You'll probably get a few extra dB at most, at the expense of hacking up the quality of sound in the monitors (which admittedly may not matter to you).

Loudest sound at the mic is going to win, EQ or no. If you want a monitor, you have to accept being close to the mic, end of story.

I totally understand your point, but I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person on the stage. If you don't hear yourself, it's natural to compensate and that compensating kills you physically and mentally disturbs your message. Perhaps there is a happy medium...

I would say the vast majority of pastors I encounter prefer *not* to hear themselves, actually. Our auditorium shape tends to reflect PA sound back onto the stage quite efficiently (I consider this a bug rather than a feature). During sound check, I always push the pastor's mic pretty hard to make sure I have plenty of gain available if needed... Out of a sample of a couple dozen people, not one of them has liked hearing his/her own voice coming reflecting back off the wall.

When you go to a restaurant, do you want the food seasoned to the likings of the chef, or you? Do you want your steak cooked to the likings of the cook, or you? That's all I'm trying to say, I have the mic, can't we make it to my likings, at least while I'm using the mic and when you use the mic by all means make it the way you like...
In this analogy, I would say the pastor is the chef, not the diner. Your preference of how you want to hear yourself should be secondary to getting good, intelligible sound out to the congregation so they can effortlessly hear your message.
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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2014, 11:23:46 AM »


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