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Author Topic: Church Sound System  (Read 37743 times)

Stefan Maerz

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2014, 10:49:36 PM »

The pastors I have worked with project so well that I typically get comb filtering when I set their mics to a comfortable level. I'm almost undoubtedly the only person in the room who notices, so I never bother to turn it up.

I guess I've been lucky with pastors.

Guest speakers, announcement people, musicians?...not so much.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2014, 07:53:05 AM »

The pastors I have worked with project so well that I typically get comb filtering when I set their mics to a comfortable level. I'm almost undoubtedly the only person in the room who notices, so I never bother to turn it up.


Maybe I am missing what is being said here.

What "level" are you setting to get combfiltering?
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Stefan Maerz

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2014, 08:37:20 AM »

Maybe I am missing what is being said here.

What "level" are you setting to get combfiltering?
Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2014, 08:46:58 AM »

Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
That's not comb-filtering.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2014, 09:10:04 AM »

A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.
The same issue seems to be reflected in some of the related mixer setup and operation as they apparently are using post-fade aux sends for the monitors and then adjusting the channel trim and fader in order to adjust the level of their mic in their monitor mix.  The channel trims should be set to provide good gain structure and left alone while the monitor mix should be independent of the house mix with the channel faders are used to create the house mix and the related pre-fade aux send levels used to create the monitor mix.
 
I also think that having just one monitor mix apparently determined by one person may be part of the problem, especially with it being reproduced by a 'stereo' monitor system using two Bose speakers at the rear of the room.  And I wonder if the those 'monitor' speakers are a sufficient distance away from the stage such that sound from them may be perceived as an echo by some on stage.
 
Perhaps if the intent of a monitor system was better understood and what they have revised to better support that then things might be much better for all involved.
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David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2014, 09:49:32 AM »

Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
one of my former churches was a concrete dome, 208' in diameter. In certain places you could hear the bounce of the pastor's voice (his actual voice, not the PA) off the dome as loud as his voice in the PA and certainly not at the same time. The original location of the mixer was in a balcony room at the back. You couldn't mix at all from there because you could hear the band coming off the stage up there louder than the PA. The sound guy had no idea what the PA was doing in the seating area.
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Stefan Maerz

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2014, 11:38:34 PM »

That's not comb-filtering.
Care to enlighten me?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2014, 07:21:18 AM »

Care to enlighten me?
Combfiltering is when 2 identical signals arrive at a location slightly out of time.

It causes notches in the response.

The freq of the first notch is 1/2 of the time difference in arrival and the freq spacing of the notches is equal to the time arrival difference

Here is a link to a paper I wrote a number of years ago.  The combfilter part is a little later on in the paper.

http://www.dbaudioandvideo.com/files/resource/loudspeaker_placement_rev041021.pdf
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2014, 07:26:03 AM »

Care to enlighten me?
Comb filtering is when two sources are very close in arrival time, tonality, and level; the result usually being a hollow sound, or interference at higher frequencies. This can sometimes be heard as a swishing sound if you walk around during playback.

What you are talking about is one or more of several things - a large difference in delay caused by speakers relatively far away compared to the presenter, echoes and/or reverb, or localization confusion due to the sound being perceived as coming from different different sources.
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Stefan Maerz

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2014, 10:30:27 AM »

Good to know. I was under the impression that a combfilter did not have to be close to being in time...But your explanation makes sense because long delay times don't result in that "Tin can" or "Hollow" sound -- a distinction makes sense.

I will read that paper when I get a little bit of time. Today is going to be a >=16 hour day, and I probably shouldn't even be reading this post right now. lol
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2014, 10:30:27 AM »


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