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Author Topic: Church Sound System  (Read 37783 times)

Jay Barracato

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2014, 11:23:52 AM »

A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

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Jay Barracato

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2014, 11:26:23 AM »

A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Throw in "I'm the customer, and the customer is always right" attitude and you've nailed this one, Jay.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2014, 11:44:17 AM »

it works the way I like it

"it works the way I like" does not equal "it works the way that sounds the best to the congregation"

You need someone who is impartial to make that call.

I have worked repeatedly with performers who go out into the audience with a wireless mic and then suddenly start shouting into the mic because they perceive they can't hear themselves, when it fact everyone else can hear them fine. The more clear the system is the worse they are.

 And I am not siding with the band. If you can have what you want and it still sounds good to the congregation you should have it. Why doesn't someone from the band go out and run the board (including muting all the mics that are not being used) while you're preaching? I'm troubled by the fact they are not volunteering to  do that. It does not take skilled engineer to mute the other mics and turn the monitor up if that works. But having Bose speakers on the back wall pointing towards the stage is an absolute no-no IMHO. 

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David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2014, 12:02:18 PM »

And if you can't hear yourself, then my assumption is they can't hear me either. If anything, me hearing myself IS my assurance they're getting good sound which then allows me to to turn my focus on delivering a good message and not "what the heck is that sound man doing today" and "why does he keep turning the PA down when I get up to speak???  Is he trying to kill me?"

give responsibility and authority to someone to make sure everyone can hear. Then focus on the message. If you must, ask people if they are having problems hearing after the service, then present any negative findings to the person you have the sound job to. I Corinthians 12 covers spiritual gifts, but the concept applies. Nobody can do everything, and if all work together, the job gets done. And get either a lapel mic or a headset mic, something that stays with you. I listened to a preacher years ago that refused to use a lapel mic, he had to have a hand held wireless mic. He would forget to hold the mic close (4000 seat church) and nobody could hear. Then he'd hold the mic close and scream into it, hurting everyone's ears. He was serving himself, at the expense of the audience. Had I been in charge, I would have told him to wear the lapel or leave.
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Josh Millward

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »

There's no "I" in "team," though.

There is an "I" in TEAM... It is hidden in the "A" hole.
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Josh Millward
Danley Sound Labs

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2014, 12:49:22 PM »

A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

I suggested this before:

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/464877.html

Chuck...

Get yourself one of these with a nice set of ear buds, take personal responsibility for what you want/need and get off everyone's case.  Plug your mic into this, then send the split signal to the "PA".  It will work for you wherever you go.  Done and done.


You just have to decide which you'd rather do:

1.  Solve your problem  or

2.  Keep bitching.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2014, 01:39:30 PM »

Lots of posts, all pretty much saying the same thing...

Let's wait for Chuck to respond, to get some more information from him as to how he wants to proceed, before piling on more. :)

-Ray
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lindsay Dean

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2014, 02:10:10 PM »

Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance. I'm not trying to make this a professional studio, but I believe there are one or two good, economical investments we can make that will produce okay results we can live with.

The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...

The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.

So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.

I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.

I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.

I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???

You need to find a qualified person reccomended by other churches to evaluate, and tune the system you already have.
Sound systems are what they are by equipment chioces, placement of each loudspeaker,mic eq setting and processing. Its not a point and shoot technology
 The most important thing is as a whole getting Gods word and music out as clearly, and trouble free as possible.
     In the church p.a world the devil IS in the details
and he will use any means possible to disrupt the service.
   Pay the money have it evaluated, tuned get someone or 2 to be trained and run the system and, move on with Gods work.
     I have helped many churches that have waited too long, hurt too many feelings, and frustrated themselves.
I promise you it will be worth the money spent.
             

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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2014, 04:33:06 PM »

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I think one of the problems you may have is that you may not be using proper microphone technique. As I haven't seen any videos of you preaching, I can only guess, so please don't take offense at any invalid assumptions I might make.

It sounds like you are a very dynamic speaker, and you like to use your voice to create emphasis: sometimes you go soft to draw the audience in, then other times you like to drive home a point with loud emphasis. (That's a good thing! A monotone preacher puts people to sleep.)

An interesting thing about human perception is that tone carries more meaning than loudness. With the human voice, however, varying the loudness is what changes the tone.

Remember that a microphone reproduces all energy it receives, wanted and unwanted, and that the inverse square law*1 applies. That means that the further away you are from the microphone, the less energy it's going to receive. For the same vocal volume, doubling the distance will result in a 6 dB loss of energy at the microphone. If you don't vary the distance, but you vary the volume of your voice, this variation will be reflected in the sound system. If you speak loudly and are a foot away from the microphone, things might sound great. But if you stay in the same spot and speak softly, the microphone still picks that up, but the energy is so low it registers below the noise floor of the room and neither the congregation nor you hears it. When you ask the board operator (if you have one) to "turn it up" during those quiet spots, it may not be possible if the system is already on the verge of feedback. No amount of equipment changes will overcome this physics problem.

Now let's go back to perception. Since tone has more to do with meaning than loudness, we can exploit this by using dynamic microphone technique. It's fairly simple -- as you speak softly, move closer to the microphone to increase the relative energy reaching the mic. As you speak more loudly, move away. With this technique -- often called 'working the mic' -- you can, in effect, be your own compressor. The result is that the actual loudness in the room -- and in the monitor -- changes very little, but since we perceive meaning based on tone rather than loudness, the effect on the congregation is unchanged. In fact, because the loudness isn't changing, the effect is better because the minds of the congregation aren't constantly working to compensate for changes in volume. (Listening to something with constantly changing volume can be very fatiguing.)

When you turn your head side to side, the mic must follow you and you must always speak into it. When you're at the pulpit, this means you must move your body so you're always facing the mic. Try as you might, microphones won't do a good job of picking up your voice if they are aimed at your forehead, your ear, or your tie tack. And please, for the love our ears, NEVER point a microphone at a loudspeaker or monitor being fed that mic's signal.

It's always helpful to have an FOH board operator. Proper mic technique makes that person's job much easier. If for some reason you cannot have an FOH operator, proper mic technique is absolutely essential.

Based on your style of speaking, I don't think a lapel or headworn mic will work well for you. Since those styles of microphones are in a fixed location relative to your mouth, you cannot "work" them as you change the loudness and tone of your voice for emphasis. I'd recommend sticking with what it appears you may already have: a handheld wireless for roaming about, then set it down when you're at the pulpit and want to used the fixed mic*2. But always, always, always remember proper mic technique.

(There may be some other equipment changes needed if there are speakers that aren't optimally placed, but that's another discussion.)

*1 -- The inverse square law states that as the distance from a source increases, the intensity of energy measured from that source decreases by the inverse of the square of the difference ratio of the distance. Or, to put it in mathematical terms: i2=i1/(d2/d1)2 where d1 is the initial distance, d2 is the new distance, i1 is the initial intensity, and i2 is the new intensity.

*2 -- When you set down the handheld mic, the microphone capsule should be more than 3x the distance away from your mouth as the pulpit mic. When you pick up the handheld mic, the pulpit mic should be more than 3x the distance from your mouth as the handheld. By observing this 3:1 rule, you help ensure that the signal in the microphones is at least 10dB different. Less than that and you can have comb filtering effects that distort the sound. The alternative is to mute the unused mic.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 04:44:30 PM by Jonathan Johnson »
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Chris Penny

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2014, 07:12:01 PM »

What an interesting thread.  All sorts of fun things happening here.

I agree with many here that this isn't just a technical issue, and that you have both expectation and interpersonal issues to resolve here.

My two big suggestions are 1) get a sound operator and 2) get a headset mic.   

Where are you located Chuck? Maybe someone here may be able to visit and get a better idea of at least the technical issues involved, if not maybe the non-technical.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2014, 07:12:01 PM »


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