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Author Topic: Church Sound System  (Read 37737 times)

Chuck Survine

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Church Sound System
« on: March 11, 2014, 11:14:59 PM »

Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance. I'm not trying to make this a professional studio, but I believe there are one or two good, economical investments we can make that will produce okay results we can live with.

The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...

The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.

So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.

I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.

I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.

I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???
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David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 12:09:32 AM »

I am a minister and have been working in live audio for 25 years. it sounds to me like you want to hear yourself, rather than have everyone hear you. You need to assign someone to make sure everyone in the audience can hear you and let them set the level, and forget about that (since you have someone taking care of it) and just preach. You dont need to hear yourself. Also, you need either a headset mic or a lapel mic rather than a podium mic if you want to move around. Again, let someone else set the level.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 12:17:38 AM »

I am a minister and have been working in live audio for 25 years. it sounds to me like you want to hear yourself, rather than have everyone hear you. You need to assign someone to make sure everyone in the audience can hear you and let them set the level, and forget about that (since you have someone taking care of it) and just preach. You dont need to hear yourself. Also, you need either a headset mic or a lapel mic rather than a podium mic if you want to move around. Again, let someone else set the level.
I'm not certain I got "he wants to hear himself" from the post, but rather that he feels that he's not getting the level in the house without shouting into the mic. You mentioned moving around the pulpit-- a lav or e6 capsule in conjunction with your pulpit mic may be beneficial.

It's going to be pretty hard to help over the interwebz-- without seeing things first hand. It seems like some gain structure issues need to be corrected; i.e. you should be able to get appropriate levels of gain from your pulpit mic without killing the rest of the house, and punching a 31-ch EQ onto your channel may help with the shaping of the tone.

Just some thoughts...

-Ray
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 12:49:31 AM »

The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...
Loudest sound at the mic wins...period.  if the reflected PA from the room is louder than your voice, then you get feedback. Is the pulpit mic directional?
Quote
The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.
Live sound is a constantly changing, dynamic thing. Even a 12-channel mixer won't be entirely "set and forget". You should really have somebody operating the console, and these days there are a ton of resources out there for learning audio (start with the blog contributors in the "church" section of this very site, for example). You're correct that stage volume management is a critical aspect of getting good sound in a small church auditorium.
Quote
So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.
If the pulpit mic is turned up in the speakers blasting back toward it, then, well, there's your problem.
Quote
I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.
Even a 31-band graphic EQ is kind of a blunt instrument for feedback reduction. I prefer parametric EQ for that task myself.

A compressor would reduce your volume when closing, but won't do anything to raise your soft speaking--you're already getting feedback when you turn up the gain, so you won't be able to turn it up any louder if you get a compressor.
Quote
I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.
There's an insert jack on the input strip, so if you only wanted to treat one input (say the pulpit mic) you could insert an EQ on that input only. More commonly, EQ is applied to treat the response of a loudspeaker, in which case you need one channel of EQ for every independent output (in your case, three).
Quote
I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???
One of the main functions of a speaker processor like the Driverack is to split a full-range input signal into two (or more) frequency bands for tops and subwoofers. If you don't need that functionality there may well be cheaper options out there. Speaker management is much more of a "set and forget" thing than mixing (in my church, for example, we haven't messed with the speaker processor settings since I started mixing sound five years ago).

Before buying anything, I'd recommend you consult with an audio professional to ensure you're making the most of the equipment you already have. A little operator training can go a long way.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 12:59:44 AM »

I have worked with church sound in a somewhat larger auditorium that is acoustically very live and with a preacher that likes to hear himself-and one that likes a hot pulpit mic.  The red flags to me in this situation are "12 mics without switches" and "unmanned desk".  You will never get enough gain before feedback to get the results you want from the pulpit with 12 open mics in the room-just not gonna happen without killing your sound quality with the EQ, even with a 31 band EQ.

We run 8 mics on our choir (probably too many, but it gets the sound we want), but those are the only mics on when they sing-and they are off rest of the time.  Same for other mics-on really only when being used.  Piano mic stays on all the time-but that is it. 
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Steve Swaffer

Mike Scott

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 07:33:37 AM »

One of the things I do is run a small church sound system (maybe a little more complicated than yours but not much).  "Eating the mic" and using a wireless mic is exactly what you need to do whether that is with a handheld mic, lapel mic or headset.  You also need someone to constantly work the mixer during the service and you need to trust them to make you sound the best they can given the room you are in and equipment you have.  And note emphasis here: most importantly you need to have a respectful conversation with yourself and everyone else involved about what you are all trying to do.  This really sounds like a people problem; it's a fairly simple technical fix.
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Tim Perry

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 10:40:35 AM »

In addition to the other good advise, turn off the back speakers. This is not surround sound or distributed sound. More is not better.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 11:12:41 AM »

Years ago, our pastor started have voice problems.  He changed from a cordless lavalier to a cordless handheld and that made a huge difference.  I learned that I could leave both the pulpit and the handheld on, IF the preacher did not try to use the handheld while standing at the pulpit.  Some preachers did try that so I had to watch. One visiting preacher stands out in my mind-when he realized that both mics were live, he said "I''ve got to get my guys back home to do this" .  He then proceeded to smoothly transition from mic to mic throughout his message.  It takes work on both "ends" of the mic for the best results. 
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Steve Swaffer

David Parker

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 11:36:28 AM »

Years ago, our pastor started have voice problems.  He changed from a cordless lavalier to a cordless handheld and that made a huge difference.  I learned that I could leave both the pulpit and the handheld on, IF the preacher did not try to use the handheld while standing at the pulpit.  Some preachers did try that so I had to watch. One visiting preacher stands out in my mind-when he realized that both mics were live, he said "I''ve got to get my guys back home to do this" .  He then proceeded to smoothly transition from mic to mic throughout his message.  It takes work on both "ends" of the mic for the best results.
Had a visiting preacher come in one Sunday morning, got up to preach and demanded the monitors be turned on. Then they weren't loud enough. Then he proceeded to chew out the sound man from the pulpit in front of the congregation. Had I been at the soundboard I would have been tempted to turn his mic off and go home.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 01:29:12 PM »

Had I been at the soundboard I would have been tempted to turn his mic off and go home.

Been there. The main switch for the system was out of arms reach from FOH for a reason!
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Steve Swaffer

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 01:29:12 PM »


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