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Author Topic: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation  (Read 6744 times)

Casjan Berends

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Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« on: March 03, 2014, 06:07:42 AM »

Hi Guys,

does anybody here have any experience with the delay-compensation features on the Pro-platform? I'm intending to use waves multirack, inserted on my vocal channels. If I have delay compensation for the input channels switched on, will this delay all my input channels to line them up with my vocal channels? From what I found up to now, this feature seems to do exactly that....

And if so, will the console check the delay on the insert constantly? Or does this happen at a certain point (for instance, when I activate an insert).

What kind of added latency have you guys found to be workable, when also feeding in-ears? My two lead-vocals are getting a dedicated monitor mix from a second console on an analog split, so no problem there, but I am sending in-ears to the band (drums, bass, keys and horns).

I know, a lot of questions, and fiddling with the console for an hour or two will clear up a lot, but we're mid-tour at the moment, and I our schedule doesn't leave me a lot of time to do so... Any light you guys can shed, would be a huge help!

Thanks!

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 08:12:50 AM »

does anybody here have any experience with the delay-compensation features on the Pro-platform? I'm intending to use waves multirack, inserted on my vocal channels. If I have delay compensation for the input channels switched on, will this delay all my input channels to line them up with my vocal channels? From what I found up to now, this feature seems to do exactly that....

And if so, will the console check the delay on the insert constantly? Or does this happen at a certain point (for instance, when I activate an insert).

What kind of added latency have you guys found to be workable, when also feeding in-ears? My two lead-vocals are getting a dedicated monitor mix from a second console on an analog split, so no problem there, but I am sending in-ears to the band (drums, bass, keys and horns).

I don't believe it checks the latency of your insert device at all. It probably adds latency to everything to line up with the added latency of the send and return of the insert, but has no way of knowing what the latency of any attached devices are, so cannot compensate for that.

From past discussions it seems that you definately want to be under 5ms, and under 2ms is better for IEMs.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 11:11:29 AM »

Hi Guys,

does anybody here have any experience with the delay-compensation features on the Pro-platform? I'm intending to use waves multirack, inserted on my vocal channels. If I have delay compensation for the input channels switched on, will this delay all my input channels to line them up with my vocal channels? From what I found up to now, this feature seems to do exactly that....

And if so, will the console check the delay on the insert constantly? Or does this happen at a certain point (for instance, when I activate an insert).

What kind of added latency have you guys found to be workable, when also feeding in-ears? My two lead-vocals are getting a dedicated monitor mix from a second console on an analog split, so no problem there, but I am sending in-ears to the band (drums, bass, keys and horns).

I know, a lot of questions, and fiddling with the console for an hour or two will clear up a lot, but we're mid-tour at the moment, and I our schedule doesn't leave me a lot of time to do so... Any light you guys can shed, would be a huge help!

Thanks!

Delay compensation works only for processing contained within the console itself and for external insert AD/DA.  It does not compensate for the external device itself...

edited to reflect Tim W's correction
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:40:35 PM by Tim McCulloch »
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Tim Woodworth

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 03:24:38 PM »

From page 215 of the Pro2 manual and from what I remember from the Midas Pro class, it does take into consideration if the insert is internal or external. External inserts are .84ms of delay while internal inserts are .58ms of delay. This set amount of external delay was set with the idea of an analog device. The console does not adjust for any latency that a digital device may be adding to the signal chain externally. From what I can recall from the class is that the desk knows which input is taking the most time to get through its signal path and delays everything to it. I believe that the amount of delay set is a fixed amount depending on what you are doing with the channels. It does not check the delay time in and out of the desk...it is a fixed amount per what you are doing with the signal. Here is from the manual.

To avoid the comb filtering effect, the PRO2 insert compensation works by delaying all
channels except the ones that have inserts assigned. In practice, the actual delay used
for compensation depends on the type of insert (internal/external) and its location
(stage/FOH). Each channel type or layer within the console, such as, input, aux,
master or matrix, has its own parameter controlling the delay compensation for that
layer. This provides the user with the maximum flexibility and allows the console to be
configured for the lowest latency for a given application
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:04:23 PM by Tim Woodworth »
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Tim Woodworth
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Casjan Berends

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 06:00:37 AM »

Thanks guys! a pretty serious case of RTFM ;-)

seems like the automatic delay compensation isn't going to do anything for me then....

From page 215 of the Pro2 manual and from what I remember from the Midas Pro class, it does take into consideration if the insert is internal or external. External inserts are .84ms of delay while internal inserts are .58ms of delay. This set amount of external delay was set with the idea of an analog device. The console does not adjust for any latency that a digital device may be adding to the signal chain externally. From what I can recall from the class is that the desk knows which input is taking the most time to get through its signal path and delays everything to it. I believe that the amount of delay set is a fixed amount depending on what you are doing with the channels. It does not check the delay time in and out of the desk...it is a fixed amount per what you are doing with the signal. Here is from the manual.

To avoid the comb filtering effect, the PRO2 insert compensation works by delaying all
channels except the ones that have inserts assigned. In practice, the actual delay used
for compensation depends on the type of insert (internal/external) and its location
(stage/FOH). Each channel type or layer within the console, such as, input, aux,
master or matrix, has its own parameter controlling the delay compensation for that
layer. This provides the user with the maximum flexibility and allows the console to be
configured for the lowest latency for a given application
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 01:58:49 PM »

FWIW, it is possible to measure the delay of an external processing chain, be it analog or digital.  Cubase does it. Send a spike, wait until you get something back, there's the delay. It's harder to pick the 'first break' if the insert highly modifies the signal (like a verb), but not impossible.

Waves inserts are going to have path delays and processing delays. The processing delays are dependent on the algorithm running, some have a lot of delay, some less.  Multirack may used a fixed delay for each effect, I don't know, but in general Waves VST plugins each have a unique delay.  Analog inserts are going to have DA and AD delays.
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Mark McFarlane

Carlos del Valle

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Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 11:48:55 AM »

I'm using a Waves Soundgrid rig on a SD8, using a MGB to interface via MADI with the console. I get 4,2ms roundtrip latency and I am using inserts on vocals. The Soundgrid server with 64 samples plugins (C6) adds 2,4ms to the desk latency, and that's the limit where it's usable. More latency becomes noticeable very quickly.

My singer is very picky with the sound tho, and I didn't think he was going to buy 4ms, but with the band and his reverb on you can't tell when the insert is on.

You can measure roundtrip latency with a smaart rig no problem.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Midas Pro2 Delay Compensation
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 11:48:55 AM »


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