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Author Topic: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)  (Read 4901 times)

Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2014, 01:11:03 pm »

Soooo Rob,

Sockets and IP addresses, and why my setup was wrong and yours is right!

Here is a basic drawing of the previous pair of devices extrapolated up to L3:
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2014, 01:24:03 pm »

We know we can tell the device what to put in the address and subnet value of the IP address block shown in the diagram... we can use static, we can use DHCP, we can just leave it, and most operating systems will "fall back" to link local or APIPA addressing.

The illustration will work just fine - all the time the wireless ports are not participating in the network.

Lets turn them on, and connect a wireless access point into the mix!

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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2014, 01:43:50 pm »

My personal recommendation is to let a network this small work "link local" or APIPA as it is known... watch carefully- this is what happens in my "bad" example

Device 1
Copper Port MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:01 IP Address - 169.254.1.1
Wireless Device MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:02 IP Address - 169.254.1.2
Device 2
Copper Port MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:03 IP Address - 169.254.1.3
Wireless Device MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:04 IP Address - 169.254.1.4
Switch
Copper Port 1 MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:05 IP Address - N/A
Copper Port 2 MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:06 IP Address - N/A
Copper Port 3 MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:07 IP Address - N/A
Copper Port 4 MAC Address -01:DC:C1:01:01:08 IP Address - N/A
Wireless Access point
Copper Port MAC Address - 01:DC:C1:01:01:09 IP Address -N/A
Wireless Device MAC Address - 01:DC:C1:01:01:10 IP Address - N/A

* I have pedantically said that the copper port of the Wireless Access point doesn't have an IP address- It doesn't- you will often have a little web server or microcontroller hidden inside a wireless access point which DOES have an IP address- this is a little computer with an internal cable through an internal switch... therefore the outward facing port does not have an IP address.

My application finds out (often by querying the routing table of the OS) that there are 2 interfaces available and their IP addresses.

The application knows that it has to send information to a destination IP address... so it looks for the interface in the same subnet as the destination.

So- we want to send information from device 1 to device 2

The application in device 1 finds out that device 2 has 2 IP addresses... it picks one
so it sets up a message targeted at 169.254.1.3... after all it is an IP address on the device that it wants to talk to.

the application gives the data to the piece of software handling sockets (socks or similar) and forgets about it.

The routing table contains 2 valid IP addresses locally to send that data through... this is like Christmas! so the internal router sends some out of the copper interface and some out of the wireless interface.

As an aside- one highly frustrating thing that can be done is to have valid addresses in the same subnet on two interfaces that are in different physical networks... its a great way to lose half of your data... which pretty much equates to losing all useful functionality- and its not immediately obvious. (I only know because I've done this!).

So hopefully its clear why this is a good "bad" example
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2014, 01:50:56 pm »

IP Addresses / Ports / Sockets make a little better sense if viewed this way:

If you need to send a piece of gear in for factory repair, you would ship it to the factory address (IP address), "Attention repair" (Port).

The service department writes back saying "We received your gear on Repair Order # xxxxx, please use this number when contacting us about this repair".  (Socket)
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2014, 01:55:50 pm »

Rob illustrates where it is a really good idea to use a combination of either DHCP or APIPA IP addresses, and where Static IP addresses can make life easier.

Rob is using his iPad to talk to the interface on his LS9 through the common physical cabling infrastructure.

Because Dante is communicating at Layer 3 it cannot see the wireless access point or the LS9 because they have IP addresses in a different logical subnet. The routing table in Robs device contains an entry for the Dante network on the copper, and an entry for his iPad/LS9 connection as a separate logical network... everything is sweet.... except (everyone groans) Multicast!

We'll handle that some other time.


One note on sockets and Anti-virus...

consider the following... If I were some ne'er do well who wanted to get all the information off your computer- one way of accessing this remotely would be to open up a "back door". Sounds like Hollywood movie speak... A "back door" is a port (typically an unreserved one) that is used for remote access - either for good or evil.

Dante uses a lot of unreserved ports, and sends a lot of data - yes - uncompressed audio is, as we all know... quite big.

Anti-virus software often mistakes this behaviour as the prelude to an attack, and steps in to protect you- unwittingly killing audio, and more commonly messing with what can be seen on the controller screen! Firewalls can do the same of course.

The port ranges that Dante uses are published in the Dante Controller User guide, so you can write exceptions for your anti-virus software.

Personally- I would do the big corporate thing... put an appliance at the gateway, and stop the viruses on their way into your network... its always struck me as a bit like putting a police checkpoint in the home straight on a race track having local antivirus on a fixed production machine... I shouldn't be able to get anywhere near the racetrack in my sedan... the security guys should have dealt with that...

OK - I know there are about a billion and one reasons why this utopian view is not a reflection on the everyday reality... but its worth considering as an absurd extrapolation.
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2014, 01:57:34 pm »

IP Addresses / Ports / Sockets make a little better sense if viewed this way:

If you need to send a piece of gear in for factory repair, you would ship it to the factory address (IP address), "Attention repair" (Port).

The service department writes back saying "We received your gear on Repair Order # xxxxx, please use this number when contacting us about this repair".  (Socket)

Thanks Scott, that is indeed one way of looking at it - I was trying to get a sense of the abstract... but I like your explanation too as a grounding influence (I agree its correct)
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2014, 02:34:13 pm »

OP here.

I spent an hour tonight, connecting this and that, rebooting this and that, sometimes Dante Controller (DC) worked sometimes it did not.

I re-installed Dante Controller on OSX, and at least for the last 30 minutes I have had predictable behavior of DVS and DC.  So let's assume I ran onto the known problem where DC has to be installed after DVS. 


I then set both the Dante Option card and my laptop to use DHCP and the system still works (even though the subnet mask on the laptop is 255.255.255.0 and the Dante option card got 169.254.177.139 and the laptop got 169.254.209.107. We'll save that for a later day.

Moving on, Kieran, how would you recommend I set up my network for the following scenario:

I have an OSX laptop that I want to (a) record via Dante, and (b) run GLD Editor OSX, a remote DSP app (under Parallels), and Sennheiser WSM OSX,...  The DSP is on the stage so it needs to be connected to wirelessly, I only have one cable pulled from FOH to the stage.

Option 1: The simplest solution seems to be to connect the GLD control network, the Dante Primary Port and the MacBook together, hardwired to ports on the WAP. Then I can connect the DSP and Wireless mics at the stage using an Airport Express in its 'extend a network' mode.  Everything is on one network. My only concern is sharing the wireless network, and the audience trying to hack the wireless network, may cause dropouts in the Dante stream if the WAP gets overloaded....

Option 2: Another option is to have two networks: the Dante Option card hardwired to the laptop NIC without a switch, and the laptop wireless connected to the WAP where all the other devices, including the GLD control network are connected.

I currently have 3 WAPs available for FOH use, a new Airport Extreme, a new D-Link N+ 300 (DIR-815, GB switch,..), and a 3 or 4 year old Belkin N600 (10/100 switch)

So how would you set this up?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 05:00:33 am by Mark McFarlane »
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Mark McFarlane
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2014, 03:39:02 pm »

Mark- I think I am missing something here...

can you clarify the following points for me:

I am assuming that there is only one piece of Dante hardware in this network- that would be the M-Dante card in the GLD at FOH- which you are connecting to the Laptop.

The cable you refer to betwixt FOH and Stage- it is unclear what this is doing? I am assuming you are running ACE down it - although I don't want to make a blind assumption.

Again, a lovely use case... and this time I will (try to) not carpet bomb the thread with how to deconstruct the universe ;)

If this is as I hope we have ourselves a very cool setup... in any case- we'll get you going.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2014, 04:30:15 pm »

Mark- I think I am missing something here...

can you clarify the following points for me:

I am assuming that there is only one piece of Dante hardware in this network- that would be the M-Dante card in the GLD at FOH- which you are connecting to the Laptop.

The cable you refer to betwixt FOH and Stage- it is unclear what this is doing? I am assuming you are running ACE down it - although I don't want to make a blind assumption.

Again, a lovely use case... and this time I will (try to) not carpet bomb the thread with how to deconstruct the universe ;)

If this is as I hope we have ourselves a very cool setup... in any case- we'll get you going.

It is similar to as you suggested:

The only Dante devices are the GLD112 and the Laptop running DVS.
The only cable going from FOH to the stage run's A&H dSNAKE protocol, not ACE. I believe they are different protocols. 

I don't really understand why A&H has both ACE and dSNAKE, other than to charge you for an ACE option card to use a GLD in monitor world in an iLive network.  Since the GLD's only have one slot, it's either Dante or ACE, not both.
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2014, 05:16:03 pm »

Mark, does the GLD console not connect to the stage box through through Dante? Is it a network spec proprietary to Allen and Heath?

I would be very wary about connecting your laptop to the Dante network and also to the console via WiFi for remote control. In my experience, Dante Controller and DVS do not like to see other network connections (as DC and DVS do not usually work if there is more than one network connection active on the computer--have had this same issue with both a Mac Pro and my Windows laptop).


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