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Author Topic: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)  (Read 56959 times)

Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2014, 03:48:42 PM »

OK Mark, sounds sensible.

I think what I've suggested will suit your needs well with no changes to you're equipment.

Let me know how you go
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2014, 04:44:12 PM »

I suggested connecting the laptop to the primary network port on the M-Dante card and the Airport extreme to the control port on the M-Dante, and on to the GLD control port for a reason... please take not that this is entirely deliberate.

There is potential for the Dante VIrtual Soundcard, and indeed the M-Dante to generate multicast audio.

You could choose to be careful... but there is already protection against this which you get "for free" if you connect the way I say - the control port filters out any multicast audio that may exist on the Dante audio network

If you don't do this you will at best cause your wireless link to become very sluggish

At worst you will lose control of the GLD - as its control stack really doesn't like multicast, and you will lose wireless connectivity.
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2014, 05:26:16 PM »

Yes, I forgot the M-Dante card had a third port.

Can you not control everything from the primary network though, like other Dante devices? Just curious...

You and I are suggesting the same thing then Kieran. Dante audio on a dedicated link to the macbook, all the control on the Airport extreme.
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2014, 05:45:13 PM »

You and I are suggesting the same thing then Kieran. Dante audio on a dedicated link to the macbook, all the control on the Airport extreme.

Not really

I am not suggesting using the Macbook Wireless at all- the more this can be minimised the better- Think of wireless like you would radio mics... if I can get rid of unnecessary radio mics, and it doesn't really mess my gig up I will... one less gives a better chance of all the others working (and before anyone suggests anything here... my biggest Radio mic/IEM/comms channel count on at once = 289!)

I think that the only reason for setting the DSP static IP in the same subnet as the DHCP server running on the Airport extreme is that the DSP is not capable of DHCP... if it were I would suggest running it DHCP.

There is no reason why all of these devices shouldn't exist on the same logical network... the multicast filtering on the M-Dante control port is a really cool feature for making this safe (and is a simple way of achieving what is otherwise the preserve of a managed switch- and then one that would need a little configuration)
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2014, 05:54:18 PM »

Not really

...

I am not suggesting using the Macbook Wireless at all- the more this can be minimised the better
There is no reason why all of these devices shouldn't exist on the same logical network... the multicast filtering on the M-Dante control port is a really cool feature for making this safe (and is a simple way of achieving what is otherwise the preserve of a managed switch- and then one that would need a little configuration)

Yes I see, You are routing all the Macbooks network connectivity through the M-Dante card and using multicast filtering on the control port.

I see the advantage of that, except I thought Mark wanted to not expose his Dante network to the wireless. Might have misunderstood that.

If you want to ditch the wireless link on the macbook, the handy-dandy USB-ethernet adapter provides another nice way of achieving that.

Assuming you setup Dante to be Unicast though, you would infact eliminate ALL multicast Dante traffic though, right? Or are you suggesting that there can be spurious multicast traffic anyway. In this case, there seems to be no reason to have Dante be multicast, since there is only 1 transmitter and 1 receiver (or 2 and 2 if you include the returns from the laptop)

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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2014, 07:15:33 PM »

The Dante network is not really exposed to the wireless...

If someone wanted to nefariously run Dante controller they would have to go to some serious effort to "break into" the wireless.

I think however the main concern was for the wireless to splat the Dante network.

The assessment to make here- how much can I fire through the Wireless Access Point as an absolute maximum amount of data- Answer - theoretically 150mbps, actually we all know it will be less than that. Next question - how much bandwidth do I have between my Laptop and my M-Dante card- Answer 1Gigabit.
Next Question- how much bandwidth will I need to send all 64 channels from the M-Dante to my Laptop - Answer - about 87mbps... so

150+87 = (worst wireless attack + Dante) = 237mbps
capacity of link 1000mbps

capacity - Armageddon = 763mbps headroom.

In terms of traffic, the Dante network is self contained between the M-Dante and the Laptop, and the control filter takes out any badness heading towards the wireless network (the M-Dante and Laptop combination is the bigger threat to the wireless- not the other way around)

I know it feels scary - but seriously looking at the theory carpet bomb of the last bazillion posts by me should explain why its safe.

Yes you are correct- unicast audio will only go point to point... this setup however protects against the eventuality that you may have set something multicast for another job in another place and forgotten ( maybe this reflects my constantly changing life... but this is how I protect myself against human error to the maximum extent)

The Dante clock will be multicast, as will discovery services- however Dante clock is such low density that the wireless network wont be affected, and the discovery service is no more extreme than having a wireless printer on the network... so not an offensive use of multicast... its the audio payload set in multicast that we are concerned about, and therefore suggest protecting agains.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2014, 12:15:29 AM »

...
I would say that this is the most bothersome part of the design as far as I see it - if there was a chance of getting another cable between FOH and stage - I'm sure you would have already.

SO

Taking the world as (I think) we find it...

try the attached connections

connect the Airport extreme to the control port of the M-Dante card, and the laptop to the Primary port of the M-Dante card.


Kieran,


Curiously, why connect the Dante control port to the WAP at all? 


The Dante Primary Port on the GLD can carry both the audio control data, and I am running DC and DVC on the MacBook, so connecting the Dante control port to the WAP (Airport Express) seems unnecessary, its just seems to be a redundant path for the Dante control traffic.
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Mark McFarlane

Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2014, 02:12:02 AM »

For the DSP control from Parallels.

Like i said, the fewer wireless connections you are relying on the better.

You dont have to of course- its just what I would do.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2014, 12:39:19 PM »

To follow up and close this discussion, here's what I settled on, it is similar to what Rob proposed, but uses one fewer connection at FOH since I am jumpering the GLD control through the Dante Control to Dante Primary port:

at FOH:
MacBook connected to Airport Extreme by 1Gb wire, using DHCP
iPad connected to Airport Extreme using DHCP.
GLD on static IP address (only option available)
GLD sync set to internal clock
GLD control connected to Dante Option Card control with a 12" cable,
Dante Primary connected to the Airport Extreme by 1Gb wire using DHCP.
Dante Option Card setup as switched, 1ms latency, pref master, Enable sync

FYI: I could never get Dante Controller working reliably (i.e. showing device details) until I upgraded the Dante Option Card firmware to the latest release. That seems to have been the major change to get a stable system. I struggled with this for several days and the A&H Dante Card firmware update seems to have been the solution.  (I also updated the GLD to 1.4 at the same time).

With the above setup I seem to have reliable Dante Controller access, reliable GLD control (wired and wireless), and reliable recording via Dante DVS.

At the Stage:
Apple Airport Express configured to extend the FOH Airport Extreme-based network.
An old, metal 10/100Mb switch connected to the Airport Express LAN port
DSP connected to the switch
Sennheiser ew300 wireless connected to the switch.

All this seems to work reliably in the shop, whether I am accessing the stage devices through OSX or Parallels.

FOH is usually within 80' of the stage at my gigs, so I am hopeful this same setup is going to work well outside the shop.
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Mark McFarlane

Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2014, 06:51:20 AM »

Mark,

I am glad that this setup works for you.

On a setup of any scale this must come with a word of warning- if you use Multicast audio, your unprotected wireless access point will likely overload, and your wireless control performance will be seriously compromised.

Previous suggestions do address this eventuality and can be used as a reference should anyone encounter performance issues attempting a similar type setup.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2014, 06:51:20 AM »


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