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Author Topic: Dante recording has spikes (& simple Dante setup discussion)  (Read 56954 times)

Jeff Simpson

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 04:52:27 AM »

Well, that makes sense also, thanks Josh. I hope Jeff from A&H will chime in since he recommended otherwise,, but perhaps because I am only running a single console.

I don't particularly disagree with what Mac and Josh are suggesting. Personally I prefer to know which device is the clock master; it is my experience that diagnosing clock sync problems is easier if this is the case. This is partly from experience of other audio networking standards, so perhaps with Dante this logic is a bit out of date. It's actually pretty useful for me to read threads like this, as it gives a better picture of how different users want to work with their audio networks.


Note that there are no power-on sequencing issues to think about if you run the console as clock master; any devices you want to slave from the console will automatically do this once the console is turned on.

Cheers

- Jeff, A&H
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Jelmer de Jong

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 04:54:39 AM »

I'm publicly calling the need for a 7200RPM drive for 24 track audio recording a legacy myth.

Automatic health checks, power downs, etc are more serious problems, and one may find these features disabled or compensated for on higher RPM drives, but the bit rates of modern TB 5400 RPM drives are fine for handling a LOT of audio channels. Automatic indexing of hard disks by Spotlight is another potential issue, or Time Machine interruptions...

Anyway, I may end up buying a faster drive to fix the problem.
Every drive from the last five years is more than capable of recording large amounts of audio. Even at 32b/192KHz it's only 750KB/s per track. Even with a low power green-efficiency 5400rpm laptop disk you are able to record at least 64 tracks simultanously.
If you wan't to take it to the next level I suggest you buy an SSD. No moving parts so you can trow the laptop on the ground without disrupting the recording (if all cables stay connected.....)
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Josh Millward

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »

Personally I prefer to know which device is the clock master; it is my experience that diagnosing clock sync problems is easier if this is the case.

I absolutely agree with you on this point, Jeff!

In this situation, the really nice thing about allowing everything to clock from the network is that now you can look in Dante Controller and see which Dante interface is the clock master for the whole system. Then, if you want someone to be the master, in Dante Controller you can just check the box next to "Preferred Master" and he will be the master. There are no questions about where the clock is coming from and who is the real master.
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Josh Millward
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BobWitte

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 01:53:37 PM »

GLD user here. We have recorded with no errors several live performances using Dante, MacBook pro's, Reaper, external Firewire drive. The largest event was 48 channels (40 channels from the stage, several wireless channels at FOH, stereo input, stereo main out, stereo matrix out. ran through a network switch (before the latest Dante update) to two macbook pos (one was a backup). Recorded almost 3 hours straight with zero errors. Files went to a local studio for an album.


Now redundancy can be setup using the Dante secondary port to the second laptop with the latest Dante firmware. No need for the network switch.


Anyways, other events were smaller, but we have yet to have any audio glitches after probably 30 plus hours of recording.

Rob Spence

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 02:19:47 PM »

I record to a MacBook Pro using Dante. I have an external FW 800 drive attached.
I have Dante on my GLD and LS932 and have recorded 8 solid hours of 24 tracks to Reaper.

I then use Reaper on my office PC to mix it down.

This conversation has been interesting. I may change my configurations to use the Dante card as clock master as a result.

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rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 04:56:10 PM »

Hi Everyone,

Here is the rationale behind the clocking... and i'll try to keep t brief!

Josh, Mac and Jeff are all making good points.

If there was a hard and fast rule for clocking in all circumstances i'm sure that Josh and Jeff would be first in line (along with us) to get rid of the confusion in our products, solving clocking issues for systems has got to be the most irritating support activity going for all concerned - not least the actual user who has at least a million better things to be doing with their time.

Unfortunately we all have to provide the flexibility... heres some scenarios, and an interpretation of what could be an approach.

1- Corporate installation - Please go gentle on me Josh ;) A DSP unit is automixing input brought in over the network from remote I/O boxes. There is no overriding "external" technical reason for caring who is the clock master - as long as all the devices are clock synchronous, all devices will pass audio, and if this system is not altered day-to-day, not worrying about it, and letting the network take care of it should be fine
   
I would only suggest that the DSP unit is set to preferred master if there was a human desire to have a "known" master device. This is because if the DSP unit were to get powered down, it would likely cause total, if not very significant system issues to occur, so putting the clock master in a place "that doesn't get turned off"... the risk of having a clock master in a remote closet is that some helpful janitor might power it down... been there ... had a janitor take down a 200 node system "because the fans were too noisy!"

I am not going to get into the my clock is better than your clock thing... if you want to make your mind up, Dante allows you to - for the rest of us... you can manage its opinions.

Summary- Clock master doesn't technically matter, you are protecting yourself from the humans

2. Live concert system (Audio only). Very similar to the fixed install. The complication is do you have the clock master at FOH, where on a large system a severed multicore may cause some severe audio issues - the absolute worst would be if the monitor console was clocking off the network, and the artist was wearing ears, and the clock failure was handled badly by the system for some reason (typically systems mute... I am trying to paint scenarios for consideration....) There may be amplifiers for the main PA located under the stage... maybe the node density is greater at the stage end... maybe the risk of power outage is lower at the stage (lets not forget that FOH power comes from stage to avoid grounding issues, and on a temporary gig... the generator is more often than not at the stage end too.

However there are some engineers who insist on having their own master clock device because it has some artistic merit for them... I'm not going there... I have my opinions, but I don't know if I am right. If it makes the show go better, let them.

Summary - Probably doesn't matter, any decision on where the clock master is will come down to a political decision between interested people, and a possible evaluation of the Doomsday scenario.

The above two I would categorise as human driven decisions- there are good reasons for making whichever choice - certainly Dante, Allen & Heath, and most other equipment manufacturers will provide systems flexible enough that the answer is "Yes"

Now Where it may matter a bit...

In environments that work with Video - particularly broadcast it is essential to lock the media clock of the audio and video together. This is important when baseband video transport is used - like when uncompressed 3GSDI camera and decks are used. Because a single broadcast camera uses 3Gbps of data for a single channel (6 Gbps is on the way!) ... ok pedantically that 3gig does carry 16 audio channels along for the ride (still insignificant in terms of bandwidth to the picture)... if this along with audio is getting dumped to a deck for recording, or being carried over a base-band dark fibre network, then the audio media clock is going to have to be synchronous to the video/broadcast system. It is also really important that they are synchronous should the video department be providing digital audio feeds from VT to the PA - the video system is likely going to want to be the master clock. You could sample rate convert between the Video department and the audio department to create two "clock domains" although this is unpopular.

In reality, how many of us stumble into this above scenario on a daily basis... not many of us...

In the above scenario it does matter where the master clock is. It is also important to slave the network to the external media clock source. Furthermore it is essential to know where the clock domain boundaries are, and probably document it for rapid troubleshooting.

Hope this brief rundown helps- happy to elaborate more if needed
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Rob Spence

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 09:36:30 PM »

+1

Nicely described. I had not thought about the monitors to ears issue if the FOH was severed.

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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 05:55:35 AM »

OP here...

I had my first successful Dante recording Thursday night.  18 channels of a "Big Band" jazz concert recoded through GLD Dante to MacBook Pro and Cubase.

I think my configuration was: Setting the GLD112 to use it's internal clock, and the Dante option card to "Enable Sync To External", single cable from Mac Pro to the Dante primary port on GDL Dante option card.

Unfortunately, I can't verify exactly what my configuration was because Thursday night Dante Controller would not tell me who the master was (Master Unknown). Dante Controller wouldn't tell me IP addresses, or any information on any devices other than they were 'green'.  Routing was about the only thing that worked in Dante Controller.  I rebooted console and computer,... still Dante Controller (laster version 3.5.0.36) didn't work as expected.

I'll reconnect everything in the shop this coming week and see if I can get Dante Controller to work again.

Anyway , the recording appears to be good.  I wasn't paid to record so I don't know if or when I'll get around to mixing the tracks, I just used this event as a test of my my new recording setup (GLD, Dante, MacBook Pro, Cubase) and it was partially successful but didn't instill a lot of confidence (yet).  That's why we run trials :)

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Mark McFarlane

Ben Anderson

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2014, 08:36:52 AM »

First time poster here but thought id chime in as i have quite a nice little Dante system.

I have had the issues described by the op and from my experience its best to set the GLD to get its clock from the slave option card, not internal, for all situations. Same situation as well, GLD - laptop via Dante. From my experience trying to set the GLD to internal and setting the Dante card in the GLD to master for the network has not worked well, although i haven't tried this again in over a year or so. 

My current Dante network consists of 2 GLD 80's, O1v96, Rednet PCIe 128 i/o (for waves multirack pc and recording) , Rednet 3 32 channel snake and multiple DVS instances (for recording and backup recording, cant trust hard drives! infact the backup records to a raid array)

I use a switch with the proper QOS settings for Dante, and the Rednet 3 runs as the dante clock master slaved to a Black Lion Micro Clock. The Micro clock also clocks to anything that will accept an external word clock even if it is also on the dante network, such as the 4 AD/DA's feeding the Rednet 3, O1v96 or sometimes an LS9 etc.

Of course the GLD's are set to get there clock from the option card as i mentioned earlier.

This would be 10+ units needing to work together digitally, and i am yet to have a problem with this system as it is set thus far. I can turn on and off any unit in the system and it wont interrupt the communication of any of the other devices, even if i switch of the rednet 3 which acts as a go between for the black lion micro clock and the dante network, the network will instantly assign a new master and continue on its way without dropping a sample.

The external word clock is imperative to this system as i have found clocking over ADAT to be VERY hit and miss in the past, so the 4 AD/DA's feeding the Rednet 3 must be clocked by a good clock. And they work every time they are switched on.

Dante amazes me, all this and a single trip over the network for any channel is only 150 micro seconds....... (Of course the software factor in DVS is different)

And the small setup of one console and only 40 channels i am using the next 2 weeks runs at 100 micro seconds (the new Dante controller can monitor latency)

If you have a chance to link 2 consoles together over Dante with redundancy, its fun pulling out one cable then swapping them over without it dropping a sample... and then going back and forth between the 2 cat5 runs without an interruption....  amazing.

For me this system provides an avenue for endless possibilities, the ability to handle extremely large channel counts (96 channels on GLD's and then the O1v can 'stem' another 32 into them) with a massive amounts of DSP (2 consoles and 128 channels of waves plugs) and huge amounts of monitoring options (2 independent aviom sends, many One mix's, another console if we like to manage more monitoring options)

I can throw any channel anywhere that its needed, just need to be good at setting multicast flows when it starts to get large! Oh and also the grids in the Dante controller patching begin to become confusing once you get to 6 or 7 units on the list, one day i patched an earthworks QTC-1 (omni for recording) directly to FOH (as there was a console side stage and a console FOH with the main outs being run from the side stage console via Dante from the FOH console) by clicking one square out of place in the controller... EEEK, thankfully that has not happened since.
 
Maybe i'm biased being an aussie rooting for an aussie company, but i think Dante really is the future. All this over standard network infrastructure, the switch was 200 dollars.

My experience with dante.
I never knew how excited i was about it until i started typing this haha. 
 

   
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2014, 08:44:26 AM »

First time poster here but thought id chime in as i have quite a nice little Dante system.
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Re: Dante recording has spikes
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2014, 08:44:26 AM »


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