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Author Topic: New Sound System from the ground up  (Read 10771 times)

Paul Foeller

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New Sound System from the ground up
« on: February 28, 2014, 05:18:12 PM »

I'm looking to replace pretty much every facet of the sound system in a sanctuary that is split into two sections separated by a wall that extends downward approx. 5 feet from the ceiling. The "main" room is 3750 sq. ft, of which about 1/4 is stage space. The other "room" is about 2500 sq ft, of which about 1/5 is stage space. The ceiling in both rooms is vaulted at anywhere between 30 and 40 feet. Basically, it's an acoustical nightmare.

That said, I'm not so much looking to make the sound perfect as I am looking to make the new system adequate for the space.  What I'm looking at currently is:

4 Cerwin Vega INT-152 V2 speakers (2 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997157-REG/cerwin_vega_int_152v2_int_152_v2_15_2_way.html

2 Cerwin Vega INT-118S V2 Subwoofers (1 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997159-REG/cerwin_vega_int_118sv2_int_118s_v2_18_passive.html

3 Cerwin Vega CV-1800 amps
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997138-REG/cerwin_vega_cv_1800_na_cv_1800_high_performance_professional.html

1 PreSonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Digital Mixer
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/763627-REG/PreSonus_STUDIOLIVE_16_0_2_StudioLive_16_0_2_Performance.html

I'm also planning some other purchases, but I'm certain on those purchases. My question is about the above listed items.

Are they adequate or overkill? Are they about right for my needs?

The system will be primarily used for regular traditional and contemporary worship services, as well as monthly movie nights and other activities.

Thanks for you input.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 07:23:06 PM »

It is difficult to imagine the space without pictures.  That said there are two comments I have. 

One - without knowing the type of program material it's hard to suggest if a speaker is appropriate or not. A rock church needs a very different spl than a traditional catholic service

Two - you should not have speakers on the same side overlapping coverage.  If you need 90 degrees of horizontal coverage then find a single speaker with 90 degrees of coverage that will do the job.  The speakers you link to are on the extreme low end of the budget and performance spectrum.  The will certainly make noise but probably do not sound good at all. 

Do you have any pictures of the space?  The presonus is a decent console, it would be a shame to send the signal into crappy speakers.  What is your budget?
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Sammy Barr

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 07:33:32 PM »

In a reverberant space it is advantageous to aim the speakers at the people and not at the reverberant spaces.  A flown system installed by a professional will give you the best results.  That being said, the fewer speakers the better.  Try to use only one speaker & one sub per side.  Consider using auxiliary subs to keep the vocals out of the subs.  The best answer will be the most expensive but it might be better to spend a bit more than have something that will not work. 
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Paul Foeller

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 08:31:31 PM »

It is difficult to imagine the space without pictures.  That said there are two comments I have. 

One - without knowing the type of program material it's hard to suggest if a speaker is appropriate or not. A rock church needs a very different spl than a traditional catholic service

Two - you should not have speakers on the same side overlapping coverage.  If you need 90 degrees of horizontal coverage then find a single speaker with 90 degrees of coverage that will do the job.  The speakers you link to are on the extreme low end of the budget and performance spectrum.  The will certainly make noise but probably do not sound good at all. 

Do you have any pictures of the space?  The presonus is a decent console, it would be a shame to send the signal into crappy speakers.  What is your budget?
The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?

Thanks for the help.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 08:37:42 PM »


The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?

Thanks for the help.

No problem - there are great offerings from a number of companies, I can probably name 10 or so, but to give some perspective, a couple years ago we spent $200k putting sound and video in a 450 seat space. So budget REALLY matters, and if it is a waste of time to recommend a system that consists of $3000 a piece speakers before you get cable in the wall, or amplifiers, or anything else, then it's a waste of time...

I would also say my recommendation is that you contract with a reputable av firm to help you come up with a list of needs and then develop a plan to implement them.
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Brad Weber

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 09:18:55 AM »

The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?

Thanks for the help.
Until we know more about the room and your use of the system it's difficult to offer any recommendations that would be based on your specific situation.
 
By your use of the system I mean things like knowing whether the system is permanent or portable, what instruments you plan to run through the system, how important spoken word is to your services, the skill level and experience of the operators, whether there are any specific expectations in terms of performance or functionality, etc.  And since you are apparently replacing an existing system, it could really help to know what is currently there, why you are replacing it and what improvements or changes you are hoping to obtain.
 
The Cerwin-Vega speakers you listed are definitely what I would consider MI grade rather than professional grade.  One aspect of that is that the information available on them is limited, I read the web site pages, data sheets and manual for the mains and subs and still don't know if they have a pole cup, although they do say they are not intended to be flown or suspended.  They also claim a nominal 90x50 pattern for the mains but there is no more detailed data showing the actual pattern at different frequencies.  That kind of more information may not really matter to a band or DJ just wanting to put out sound but it can be important when you are wanting to determine if all your members will hear the sound from the system while also understanding the spoken word in your "acoustical nightmare".
 
You said you are planning on other purchases, does that include processing for the speaker system?  As far as I can tell, the mixer, subwoofers, main speakers and amplifiers you selected have no integrated crossover functionality, thus unless you are running aux fed subs and using the mixer output equalization, which seems unlikely, you will need to provide a crossover or speaker processor before the amplifiers in order to route the high frequencies to the main speakers and the low frequencies to the subwoofers.
 
Will the eight mono and four mono/stereo inputs of the 16.0.2 be sufficient for your use?  One might assume that the reference to contemporary services represents a band or some instrument sources and the reference to traditional services one or more mics for that while the reference to movie nights seems to represent at least one stereo source for that purpose.  You might want to make sure you have sufficient inputs for your needs and perhaps some future expansion.
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Samuel Rees

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New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 10:05:33 AM »

No one is suggesting you buy anything "just because it's expensive". Your certainly at no risk of that right now - CV and similar products are sorta something people but "just because they are cheap".

+1 on the coverage - 90 degree horizontal boxes are too wide to splay close together nicely. How many degrees of coverage do you estimate you need? If not that much, consider one box per side that is much louder. That shouldn't be hard, OR expensive considering that the CV's CALCULATED SPL is a small 124db.

If you look at one box per side with the coverage you need, you can get something much nicer for similar money. If you aren't experienced in configuring a DSP and processing a system, consider powered speakers. JBL PRX700, QSC KW, and Yamaha DSR offer significant pre-configured processing and require no external crossover.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 10:23:56 AM by Samuel Rees »
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Paul Foeller

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 11:31:21 AM »

Until we know more about the room and your use of the system it's difficult to offer any recommendations that would be based on your specific situation.
 
By your use of the system I mean things like knowing whether the system is permanent or portable, what instruments you plan to run through the system, how important spoken word is to your services, the skill level and experience of the operators, whether there are any specific expectations in terms of performance or functionality, etc.  And since you are apparently replacing an existing system, it could really help to know what is currently there, why you are replacing it and what improvements or changes you are hoping to obtain.
 
The Cerwin-Vega speakers you listed are definitely what I would consider MI grade rather than professional grade.  One aspect of that is that the information available on them is limited, I read the web site pages, data sheets and manual for the mains and subs and still don't know if they have a pole cup, although they do say they are not intended to be flown or suspended.  They also claim a nominal 90x50 pattern for the mains but there is no more detailed data showing the actual pattern at different frequencies.  That kind of more information may not really matter to a band or DJ just wanting to put out sound but it can be important when you are wanting to determine if all your members will hear the sound from the system while also understanding the spoken word in your "acoustical nightmare".
 
You said you are planning on other purchases, does that include processing for the speaker system?  As far as I can tell, the mixer, subwoofers, main speakers and amplifiers you selected have no integrated crossover functionality, thus unless you are running aux fed subs and using the mixer output equalization, which seems unlikely, you will need to provide a crossover or speaker processor before the amplifiers in order to route the high frequencies to the main speakers and the low frequencies to the subwoofers.
 
Will the eight mono and four mono/stereo inputs of the 16.0.2 be sufficient for your use?  One might assume that the reference to contemporary services represents a band or some instrument sources and the reference to traditional services one or more mics for that while the reference to movie nights seems to represent at least one stereo source for that purpose.  You might want to make sure you have sufficient inputs for your needs and perhaps some future expansion.

It will be a permanent system, with mostly piano, drums and acoustic guitar in addition to some spoken word. I'm fairly new on the scene on this specific place, but have a lot of mixing experience before this. The main reason I'm taking over is that the other operators are really bad at mixing sound and understanding basic concepts about feedback, distortion, and anything else besides moving the channel sliders up and down. I mentioned gain one time, and they looked at me like I had just walked off of a spaceship.

Performance expectations are simply to improve on the old system. The old system consists of an analog Yamaha board (I don't remember the model number, but it is clearly at least a decade old, probably closer to 2 decades old) that has no effects processing. It's a 32 channel board, but it's being used in crazy ways. Probably half of the channels are being used improperly (floor monitors and other aux sends, rca inputs for computers and dvd players, etc) which is taking up more channels than needed.

I have no idea what speakers are being flown, except that they were already there in a picture from the early 80's and they look like this: http://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=647 except they're white and possibly a little bigger. There are currently 2 of those on each side of the room, and no subwoofer. There is also currently an apparently equally old Peavy amp and they've EQ'd it all in a smiley face shape... yeah, it's really bad.

They asked my opinion, and after having been to a number of services there -- and never having a single service without multiple instances of distortion, feedback, and nearly inaudible voices and instruments -- I told them that what they currently have is at the very least outdated, and more than likely incapable of ever doing what they want it to do.

So now, on their request, I'm looking in to replacing pretty much everything, and I've been given no budget or specific instruction. Fun stuff.

That said, If I'm understanding correctly, I would be better served by getting one of these:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003318-REG/jbl_prx735_1500w_15_3_way_powered.html

for each side of the space, and pairing each with a sub like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003320-REG/jbl_prx718xlf_1500w_18_extended_lows.html

is that correct? If so, what amp, crossover, mixer or other recommendations would you make?

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:33:57 AM by Paul Foeller »
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Brad Weber

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 02:11:53 PM »

So now, on their request, I'm looking in to replacing pretty much everything, and I've been given no budget or specific instruction. Fun stuff.

That said, If I'm understanding correctly, I would be better served by getting one of these:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003318-REG/jbl_prx735_1500w_15_3_way_powered.html

for each side of the space, and pairing each with a sub like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003320-REG/jbl_prx718xlf_1500w_18_extended_lows.html

is that correct? If so, what amp, crossover, mixer or other recommendations would you make?
For permanent installs you often start by looking at where speakers can be located and based on that, what speaker pattern(s) may be appropriate in order to provide good coverage while also minimizing overlap and keeping the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls or ceiling.  Without knowing the speaker locations or how those relate to the listener area it is therefore difficult to comment on any proposed speakers or to make related recommendations.  And without knowing the room and where speakers could be located it is usually rather difficult to determine where the speakers should be located.  While nothing can beat actually being able to be in the room, it would really help to have any pictures, drawings, dimensions, etc. for the room.
 
Another aspect of the speaker system is the speaker output and response.  As proposed to be installed, can the speakers provide sufficient output and do they have appropriate response for the intended application?  There's two basic ways to approach this.  One is to define related goals and select speakers that can be predicted to meet those goals.  If you have any goals for the desired sound levels and/or response then knowing that that might help people with such an effort.  The other option is to select speakers based solely on other criteria (size, brand, price, etc.) and then accept whatever results they provide.  It really comes down to whether you have any specific goals in terms of the system output and/or response or are willing to accept whatever you get.
 
Of course one aspect of the speaker installation that is often relevant to installed systems is whether any speakers are to be flown or rigged overhead.  That is often a desired approach in order to obtain more even coverage across the entire listener area, but it also entails having a professonal verify that you have structure to which the speakers can be safely attached and having appropriately qualified and insured parties handle the related installation.
 
Then there is system tuning.  Getting the most from a speaker system often involves proper system optimization or tuning and that includes both having the appropriate equipment in place and having the skills and tools to apply that equipment in an effective manner.  While many churches cut back on the tuning and/or related hardware to help reduce costs, just be aware that doing so quite likely negatively affects the final system performance and/or limits getting the most effective use of the speaker system hardware.
 
The general point is that selecting speakers for installed systems is typically approached differently than selecting them for portable systems and because you are dealing with a specific space and often specific uses, much of that difference is often in optimizing the speakers, their physical implementation and the system tuning to the specific room, acoustical environment and application(s) involved.  Put simply, to get the best results for installed speaker systems it is usually not just picking good speakers for the intended use, it is also considering how the speakers will work with the intended implementation in that particular space.
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Paul Foeller

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Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 02:40:11 PM »

For permanent installs you often start by looking at where speakers can be located and based on that, what speaker pattern(s) may be appropriate in order to provide good coverage while also minimizing overlap and keeping the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls or ceiling.  Without knowing the speaker locations or how those relate to the listener area it is therefore difficult to comment on any proposed speakers or to make related recommendations.  And without knowing the room and where speakers could be located it is usually rather difficult to determine where the speakers should be located.  While nothing can beat actually being able to be in the room, it would really help to have any pictures, drawings, dimensions, etc. for the room.
 
Another aspect of the speaker system is the speaker output and response.  As proposed to be installed, can the speakers provide sufficient output and do they have appropriate response for the intended application?  There's two basic ways to approach this.  One is to define related goals and select speakers that can be predicted to meet those goals.  If you have any goals for the desired sound levels and/or response then knowing that that might help people with such an effort.  The other option is to select speakers based solely on other criteria (size, brand, price, etc.) and then accept whatever results they provide.  It really comes down to whether you have any specific goals in terms of the system output and/or response or are willing to accept whatever you get.
 
Of course one aspect of the speaker installation that is often relevant to installed systems is whether any speakers are to be flown or rigged overhead.  That is often a desired approach in order to obtain more even coverage across the entire listener area, but it also entails having a professonal verify that you have structure to which the speakers can be safely attached and having appropriately qualified and insured parties handle the related installation.
 
Then there is system tuning.  Getting the most from a speaker system often involves proper system optimization or tuning and that includes both having the appropriate equipment in place and having the skills and tools to apply that equipment in an effective manner.  While many churches cut back on the tuning and/or related hardware to help reduce costs, just be aware that doing so quite likely negatively affects the final system performance and/or limits getting the most effective use of the speaker system hardware.
 
The general point is that selecting speakers for installed systems is typically approached differently than selecting them for portable systems and because you are dealing with a specific space and often specific uses, much of that difference is often in optimizing the speakers, their physical implementation and the system tuning to the specific room, acoustical environment and application(s) involved.  Put simply, to get the best results for installed speaker systems it is usually not just picking good speakers for the intended use, it is also considering how the speakers will work with the intended implementation in that particular space.

I've attached a rough layout of the sanctuary space, with the stage area indicated by the red line, the partial wall by the green line, the speakers by yellow (and their direction by the black lines from the yellow) and the mixer, amp, etc location indicated by blue.

Ideally, the system could average at around 90 or 95 db but peak higher and maintain slightly higher for contemporary services and/or special events.

Is there any other information that would be helpful?

Edit: I don't expect to average 90 or 95, but I would like the system to able to sustain that level.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:46:52 PM by Paul Foeller »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New Sound System from the ground up
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 02:40:11 PM »


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