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Author Topic: Sound System Design Help  (Read 18255 times)

Jason Porter

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Sound System Design Help
« on: February 19, 2014, 01:15:14 AM »

Hi everyone,
I am in need of help/advice for a sound system I'm trying to design. It is for a rather unique application so let me take a minute to explain the application it will be used in.
I am designing a sound system for a competitive indoor percussion ensemble. Basically take the drumline section of a marching band and take it inside to a gym floor. This link will give you an idea of the activity - http://youtu.be/x4DvCRHbZbU
This application comes with it's own set of challenges, first being it's got to be easy to setup. This is a timed event so a quick setup is essential. Most of the ensembles this group competes against run 1 speaker cable from the L and R speaker/sub set to an amp. Ideally that's the setup I'm looking for as well, but a max of 2 cables would be ok. The next challenge that comes with this activity is the venue size. The venue in the link provided is where the final competition of the season is held. It is the University of Dayton Arena - a college basketball arena. Although they only use half of the arena for seating.
I've been looking at several speakers and subs to suit the needs of this ensemble but can't come up with anything I'm super happy with. So I thought reaching out to other sound system designers would be the next best option.
For the system I need a minimum of 2 subs, but ideally 4 total, preferably 18" - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX2181, the EV TX1181, and the JBL PRX418S. I'm also looking at 4 mains with 15" woofers - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX1152 and the JBL PRX415M. Reasoning for 4 mains is simply for the high end, but if something like the EV TX2152 or the JBL PRX425 would work for great high end sound I would not be opposed to them. Finally, I need to power it all. Again, because of application, daisy chaining would be the most practical way to connect all of the speakers in a L/R setup.
I apologize for the long post, but wanted to get as much info on the table up front as possible. Any and all suggestions are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help!
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 07:42:54 AM »

Hi everyone,
I am in need of help/advice for a sound system I'm trying to design. It is for a rather unique application so let me take a minute to explain the application it will be used in.
I am designing a sound system for a competitive indoor percussion ensemble. Basically take the drumline section of a marching band and take it inside to a gym floor. This link will give you an idea of the activity - http://youtu.be/x4DvCRHbZbU
This application comes with it's own set of challenges, first being it's got to be easy to setup. This is a timed event so a quick setup is essential. Most of the ensembles this group competes against run 1 speaker cable from the L and R speaker/sub set to an amp. Ideally that's the setup I'm looking for as well, but a max of 2 cables would be ok. The next challenge that comes with this activity is the venue size. The venue in the link provided is where the final competition of the season is held. It is the University of Dayton Arena - a college basketball arena. Although they only use half of the arena for seating.
I've been looking at several speakers and subs to suit the needs of this ensemble but can't come up with anything I'm super happy with. So I thought reaching out to other sound system designers would be the next best option.
For the system I need a minimum of 2 subs, but ideally 4 total, preferably 18" - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX2181, the EV TX1181, and the JBL PRX418S. I'm also looking at 4 mains with 15" woofers - a couple I've been looking at are the EV TX1152 and the JBL PRX415M. Reasoning for 4 mains is simply for the high end, but if something like the EV TX2152 or the JBL PRX425 would work for great high end sound I would not be opposed to them. Finally, I need to power it all. Again, because of application, daisy chaining would be the most practical way to connect all of the speakers in a L/R setup.
I apologize for the long post, but wanted to get as much info on the table up front as possible. Any and all suggestions are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help!
But you forgot the most important thing-what is your budget?

Drum lines can get LOUD-especially indoors-so the real question is how loud does the sound system need to be to compete?  Does it need to be as loud?  Or just so the audience can "hear something" coming out of the PA.

You will get better sound if you use ONE main per side-but of a higher quality/greater output.  When you use 2 (trying to get louder) you will get louder-but also sound worse and less clear.

Of course louder boxes generally mean heavier and larger-so this is a consideration.

Do you want quantity or quality or ease of moving or price?
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Sammy Barr

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 09:39:42 AM »

The synth patches and extreme volumes should lead you to higher end boxes. One of our local groups uses JBL srx 712m  tops over srx 718 powered with a crown xti4000. Sounds really good, yes it needs more power but usually you are provided one outlet for everything. Throwing a breaker mid show is not cool.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 09:59:43 AM »

Since the more we know about the situation the better we can respond, in addition to the budget, size and weight issues that Ivan noted, is the speaker system primarily to reproduce the keyboards and bass?  Do you have any idea of the dimensions of your typical venues or at least of the typical performance area?
 
You mentioned a L/R setup, are you actually thinking stereo reproduction?  Do you typically have audience seating that wraps around the sides of the performance area as in that video?  Stereo reproduction would be difficult with that type of seating arrangement.  If that seating is common then would a mono system with one subwoofer and main to each side and two or three subwoofers with mains across the front be feasible?  That would seem to possibly provide reasonable mono coverage of the audience.
 
Why did you select the speakers you mentioned?  Are they what you have seen used successfully by others or was there some other basis?  Do you have any idea of what others use that seem to work well or to not work well?
 
If you are always using subwoofers then you can probably use, and may actually prefer, mains with 12" woofers.  Being smaller, lighter and usually less expensive than their 15" counterparts may also help in your situation.
 
It sounds like you are ideally looking for subwoofers with integrated crossovers (i.e. a high pass output) that then feed the related main(s), is that correct?  Do you, or will you, have any other system processing?
 
Do you already have the amplification or will that be purchased based on the speakers selected?  And following up on Sammy's post, what power provisions are usually available?  If you are limited on power you may want to look at speakers with higher sensitivities (e.g. speakers that will get louder for a given input power).
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Jason Porter

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 01:33:04 PM »

Thanks for all of the feedback. I will do my best to answer all of the questions presented in the previous posts here:

What is my budget?
The ensemble I'm designing this system for didn't give me a specific budget. Just asked me to propose to them a "Good, better, best" scenario.

How loud does the system need to be?
The higher the output db, the better. Obviously as mentioned, the drums can get loud. Running through this system will be 14 instrument mics, 2 synthesizers, bass guitar, and voiceover samples. The system needs to be loud enough that the voiceovers can be heard over the other noise in the room.

Dimensions of typical venue or performance area?
The biggest venue the ensemble goes to is the University of Dayton Arena. They are designing the show to that venue so that's what the sound system needs to be adapted to. Granted it's not ideal for all venues the ensemble will compete in, but the University of Dayton Arena is the most important venue. I'll continue looking for dimensions of the arena but so far I've not had much luck.

Quality or ease of moving?
Both would be ideal, however, I know that's a "perfect" scenario. Given that they want a "good, better, best" scenario at this point all options are possible.

Am I thinking stereo setup?
Yes. Typically there is no audience wrapping around the competition area. Typically the audience is only on the front side. So a stereo setup will work.

Why did I select the speakers I did?
The ensemble has a sponsorship that will not allow me to use the Yamaha gear that has been suggested to the ensemble before they asked me to help them out. So I set out searching the Full Compass and Sweetwater websites for new mains/subs for them.

Do I have any idea what others use that seems to work well?
There is a big variety in what other ensembles are using. Many use the Yamaha Club Series, but as mentioned above, this ensemble can't use those. Some ensembles use the full range dual 15 inch cabinet on top of dual 18 inch subs on each side (L/R), some use a single 15 inch cabinet on top of a single 18 inch sub on each side (L/R), and one uses 2 18 inch subs near the center and 2 15 inch powered mains on each side (L/R). I hesitate to suggest using powered speakers because they currently have powered subs and they do not like them much at all.

Do I, or will I, have other signal processing?
At the moment the only signal processing the ensemble has is what is built into the Behringer X32 console. If needed, more could probably be purchased, but I'd have to run it by the ensemble directors.

Do I already have amplification or will that be purchased based on the speakers selected?
The amplification will be purchased based on the speakers selected. They currently have 2 Crown XLS 1000 amps, but based on anything I've been looking at for them, those will not work. So I intend to replace those amps once I know what speakers I want to suggest to them.

What power is available?
Usually there is a single 120V plug available for the ensemble to use in competition. Which obviously leaves me pretty limited. Everything on the ensemble's end is connected to a Furman power conditioner but the exact model of that escapes me at the moment.

I think that answers all of the questions that have been asked at this point. Again, I appreciate everyone's assistance with this. If more details are needed, please let me know.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 05:49:10 PM »

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 06:24:29 PM »

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?
But that would be FAIR-and who wants that in a competition----------------
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Ivan Beaver
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Jason Porter

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 07:34:24 PM »

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying you go to competitions and every band brings their own PA system and has to set it up before they perform? Why doesn't the venue hosting the event bring in something appropriate from a local provider and have everybody patch in like any other live event?

You understand correctly. The reason there's no house system is because the use of the sound system at rehearsals is when everything is determined. So every ensemble has an audio person on staff to setup and mix the ensemble's sound. By having your own system you know exactly what you're going to hear. Then at the competitions that audio person is allowed to sit near the judges and mix via network connection (provided by that ensemble) during the performance. It basically comes down to the need to have the same sound system in rehearsal as you'll have at the competition. Sure it would make life 100 times easier to patch into a house system, but then again, it adds just one more element to the competition.  :)
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 08:26:14 PM »

Sure it would make life 100 times easier to patch into a house system, but then again, it adds just one more element to the competition.  :)
Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 08:59:28 PM »

Yeah.. loudest PA wins.  :-\

The problem here and probably the reason nobody has actually suggested any equipment yet is because the right system for a space like that in the video could look a lot like a full blown concert system.. hundreds of thousands of dollars in speakers flown and arrayed.. if you want all seats to hear the same thing that is. If it's just the judges you're appealing to then that's a whole different game.. a single ground stacked "cluster" would do the job.
The "standard" answer is "It depends".

Without knowing the goal of the system or design-there is no way to give a real usable answer.

Sure- some answers "might" work-but how would you know-without knowing the "target" and what you have to "shoot at it".
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Sound System Design Help
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 08:59:28 PM »


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