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[Dennis Goh]

Hi all,

Once again, "lost" greenhorn need help...Not a troll, just want to find ways to get that sound which i can't get it.

Previously i started a thread >>>http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,141741.msg1312329.html#msg1312329

Regarding finding dual 18 tat go low...below in red

The reason with dual 18" is because i only hear that particular low feq or feeling of music (with main) on dual 18" sub. From sho, jbl, l"accoustic,turbosound.
Seriously, i have never hear that in single 18" cabs.
**Originally, i thought was dual 18" is only the +3db as place together...so i get more single 18" cab place them together.. in fact four of them.. still do not have that sound. I guess is the sub box? driver itself? or i am missing out on decent single 18" cabs.

Edited again: In some disco/clubs during playback of music from tiesto, armin van buuren etc, there will be hard hitting higher feq bass.(This i can get it).THEN, there is also that pants/jeans rumbling effect to the music / sound, like the air around you is shaking, stand in front of the sub, one will hard breathing.

Apologies if i am long winded just to ask some simple qus / might have been touch before or starting again, English is not my first subject.
Just wanted to include more infos if it is needed.

Now, i found a video tat roughly show what i meant in what i want...In the video, they are using l"accoustic, again is dual 18 sub but many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE

Do listen with sub the above video, i also did record it with my iphone but it do no justice to what i hear LIVE.
The above video has the closest sound to what i heard LIVE ; of which i can find on youtube.
Except during LIVE, the whole surrounding air is just shaking along with the sound the sub is producing.
I just want to make that "sub sound" that appear in the video to appear on my subs. Is it possible?

How the people get that/tuning/settings for sub to produce that type of lows?
I have tried playing with setting for only a few years (during rental/ in pub) but had never been able to get it.

*I understand i am not able to make that SPL in open space as my eqs are unable to support.
I want it for my home; thus not so much SPL is needed i guess, but just want that "sound" to appear.
Reason being, if 2 piece single 18" is almost equal to 1 dual 18" cab in spl (same make & series/model); for my case using at home ,i dun need very high SPL.

Erm.....can some kind person please share or teach me what setting can i use in order to get that sound to appear ? As i strongly believes that you guys roughly knows what setting can produce that sound just by listening to that above video."PM me also can..."

In my noobish point of view, what comes from source, go into sub, is what comes out. Of cos, if the issue is with the items i used then i will have to live with it for the time being; but i think is that i do not know what settings to use in 260, what feq to boost in peq & stuffs for the subs.

Stuffs i use now->
Source: 3.5mm out from computer with sound blaster soundcard or Marantz CD player or iphone.
Plug into : soundcraft efx12 or behringer djm 700 or xenyx 1832FX.
Tuning: driverack 260, ultragraph pro FBQ 1502, composer pro xl-mdx2600.
Amp: nuke 6000dsp (2 pc), hd-5000 (1 pc).
Spk: kempton gt12(4 pc),qsc k12 (2 pc),wharfedale evp x15p(2 pc).
Sub: jbl prx 618 xlf (2 pc), wharfedale delta18b(8 pc).

Thanks In Advance.
Dennis

Edited: Using earphone can hear it clearly..Thx

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Hi all,

Once again, "lost" greenhorn need help...Not a troll, just want to find ways to get that sound which i can't get it.

Previously i started a thread >>>http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,141741.msg1312329.html#msg1312329

Regarding finding dual 18 tat go low...below in red

Apologies if i am long winded just to ask some simple qus / might have been touch before or starting again, English is not my first subject.
Just wanted to include more infos if it is needed.

Now, i found a video tat roughly show what i meant in what i want...In the video, they are using l"accoustic, again is dual 18 sub but many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE

Do listen with sub the above video, i also did record it with my iphone but it do no justice to what i hear LIVE.
The above video has the closest sound to what i heard LIVE ; of which i can find on youtube.
Except during LIVE, the whole surrounding air is just shaking along with the sound the sub is producing.
I just want to make that "sub sound" that appear in the video to appear on my subs. Is it possible?

How the people get that/tuning/settings for sub to produce that type of lows?
I have tried playing with setting for only a few years (during rental/ in pub) but had never been able to get it.

*I understand i am not able to make that SPL in open space as my eqs are unable to support.
I want it for my home; thus not so much SPL is needed i guess, but just want that "sound" to appear.
Reason being, if 2 piece single 18" is almost equal to 1 dual 18" cab in spl (same make & series/model); for my case using at home ,i dun need very high SPL.

Erm.....can some kind person please share or teach me what setting can i use in order to get that sound to appear ? As i strongly believes that you guys roughly knows what setting can produce that sound just by listening to that above video."PM me also can..."

In my noobish point of view, what comes from source, go into sub, is what comes out. Of cos, if the issue is with the items i used then i will have to live with it for the time being; but i think is that i do not know what settings to use in 260, what feq to boost in peq & stuffs for the subs.

Stuffs i use now->
Source: 3.5mm out from computer with sound blaster soundcard or Marantz CD player or iphone.
Plug into : soundcraft efx12 or behringer djm 700 or xenyx 1832FX.
Tuning: driverack 260, ultragraph pro FBQ 1502, composer pro xl-mdx2600.
Amp: nuke 6000dsp (2 pc), hd-5000 (1 pc).
Spk: kempton gt12(4 pc),qsc k12 (2 pc),wharfedale evp x15p(2 pc).
Sub: jbl prx 618 xlf (2 pc), wharfedale delta18b(8 pc).

Thanks In Advance.
Dennis

Edited: Using earphone can hear it clearly..Thx

You could take the subs you have and add 50 more of them and not come even close to the L'Acoustics subs you mentioned.

Can't be done.  If you want that sound, you'll have to have those L'Acoustics subs.

[Stu McDoniel]

Hi all,

Once again, "lost" greenhorn need help...Not a troll, just want to find ways to get that sound which i can't get it.

Previously i started a thread >>>http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,141741.msg1312329.html#msg1312329

Regarding finding dual 18 tat go low...below in red

Apologies if i am long winded just to ask some simple qus / might have been touch before or starting again, English is not my first subject.
Just wanted to include more infos if it is needed.

Now, i found a video tat roughly show what i meant in what i want...In the video, they are using l"accoustic, again is dual 18 sub but many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2JOVkXulE

Do listen with sub the above video, i also did record it with my iphone but it do no justice to what i hear LIVE.
The above video has the closest sound to what i heard LIVE ; of which i can find on youtube.
Except during LIVE, the whole surrounding air is just shaking along with the sound the sub is producing.
I just want to make that "sub sound" that appear in the video to appear on my subs. Is it possible?

How the people get that/tuning/settings for sub to produce that type of lows?
I have tried playing with setting for only a few years (during rental/ in pub) but had never been able to get it.

*I understand i am not able to make that SPL in open space as my eqs are unable to support.
I want it for my home; thus not so much SPL is needed i guess, but just want that "sound" to appear.
Reason being, if 2 piece single 18" is almost equal to 1 dual 18" cab in spl (same make & series/model); for my case using at home ,i dun need very high SPL.

Erm.....can some kind person please share or teach me what setting can i use in order to get that sound to appear ? As i strongly believes that you guys roughly knows what setting can produce that sound just by listening to that above video."PM me also can..."

In my noobish point of view, what comes from source, go into sub, is what comes out. Of cos, if the issue is with the items i used then i will have to live with it for the time being; but i think is that i do not know what settings to use in 260, what feq to boost in peq & stuffs for the subs.

Stuffs i use now->
Source: 3.5mm out from computer with sound blaster soundcard or Marantz CD player or iphone.
Plug into : soundcraft efx12 or behringer djm 700 or xenyx 1832FX.
Tuning: driverack 260, ultragraph pro FBQ 1502, composer pro xl-mdx2600.
Amp: nuke 6000dsp (2 pc), hd-5000 (1 pc).
Spk: kempton gt12(4 pc),qsc k12 (2 pc),wharfedale evp x15p(2 pc).
Sub: jbl prx 618 xlf (2 pc), wharfedale delta18b(8 pc).

Thanks In Advance.
Dennis

Edited: Using earphone can hear it clearly..Thx

There is reality...and then there is reality.
Lots of money =  big sound

[Ivan Beaver]

You need to start with real subs that go low.

Most subs are not tuned that low-they are more for punch than depth.

You should look for subs that go flat down to 30Hz or lower.  NOT just the simple numbers on the spec sheets.

look at the actual measured freq response to be sure.

[Bob Kidd]

There is reality...and then there is reality.
Lots of money =  big sound

+1

[Dennis Goh]

Awww...

So, tis is the sb28..
(-10) @ 25Hz
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-sb28-subwoofer-44.html
SIze>>51.2 x21.7 x 27.6inch

For my case, i can only go single 18 due to potability (that is if i go get em.)
BUT, the single 18 is (-10) @ 32Hz...
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-sb18m-subwoofer-118.html
Size> 29.9 x 21.4 x 28.2 inch.

Base on size alone, size of single 18 cab seems bigger then the dual 18 cab..so maybe size is not the factor here?
The single l accoustic sub also cannot produce that sound i want.
It jus appear on dual 18" cabs...

i wen to test the single srx 718 but it failed, however the sound appear when srx 728 comes into play..
i also try couple two piece srx 718 together to VS one piece 728 at the at the distrobutor...sounded different.

Then there were some hype bout the prx xlf, i got 2 piece of them, also dun really have that sound i wanted; and if i were to compare it to the srx 728.

18" subs and small size aren't something that go together. A dual 18 will usually be at least 40" across the front and the cabinet size has to be a size that works with the driver. Many of us use single 18" cabinets. You can size the rig to the gig and they are much easier to handle.

First you need to qualify your needs more.

you said go lower-but what about total loudness (ACTUAL SPL).  How important is that-yeah yeah-everybody says they need to be loud-but HOW LOUD DO YOU need them to go?

Why dual 18" drivers?  Is there something magical about that configuration that you need?

So, why is the dual 18 cab go lower then using two 18 cab?
coupling is +3db(extra driver) & +3(voltage to them)...assume they are hung in mid-air.

** I never heard other good stuffs so i cannot compare them..so my experiance  is very limited.

Thanks.

[chuck clark]

As usual Mr Ivan Beaver is spot on. 

I was in this same situation back in the 80's when I had 6 Cerwin-Vega L-36's and some Crown Microtech 1200's and my church was doing a play that included a crucifixion scene and yes, they wanted to simulate an earthquake.
Luckily I had a tape with the soundtrack of the movie "earthquake" but in practice I was having the exact same problem you are now having.
Here's what I did:
#1. I set my old 18db per octave Ashley crossover as low as it would go=70hz
#2. Bumped 20 and 30hz +6db
#3. Bumped 40hz +3 db
#4. Left 50 hz alone
#5. Cut 60 hz -3db
#6. Cut 70 hz -6db
#7. Cut 80 hz -9db
#8. dropped 100 & 125 all the way (-12db)
#9. removed grill to watch for destructive excursion on 1 spkr.
#10. Bring up volume slowly until clip light winked on 1 of the amps.
Marked that level with tape across fader so it would go no higher!
Good luck. Hope you don't blow anything up. heh, heh.
Chuck

[Ivan Beaver]

Awww...

So, tis is the sb28..
(-10) @ 25Hz
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-sb28-subwoofer-44.html
SIze>>51.2 x21.7 x 27.6inch

For my case, i can only go single 18 due to potability (that is if i go get em.)
BUT, the single 18 is (-10) @ 32Hz...
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-sb18m-subwoofer-118.html

To make up 10dB (the -10dB point) it takes TEN TIMES as much power-which the speaker cannot handle. 

So in this case 25 or 32Hz would require ten times as much power to be as loud as some other freq that we don't know (because there is no measurement to show it).

Even when comparing to -3dB there is a 7dB difference with is over 4 times as much power.

So if you really want to reproduce those freq at the same level as the higher freq- then you need to run the system WELL below max output and boost those freq.

Of course that means you will need more speakers/amps/power/cable and so forth.

Or use different speakers.

Of course as you go low with any loudspeaker-the sensitivity and max output goes down.  It is a trade off-extension vs output.

As a result all designs are a compromise.  If you don't need to go low-then you can go louder.

Not all systems need to go to 30hz (or lower)  many are happy going down to 50Hz.

There is a HUGE difference between 30 and 50hz.

Think of it like cars-it is pretty easy to go to 80mph.  Getting to 150 is quite another story.  And if you want 200mph-you are in a different class all around.

You are not going to get to 200mph with your Chevy Chevette-no matter how much you want to.

Real speakers-like real cars cost real money.

Don't expect the cheapest thing you can buy to perform like the "big boys" just because it has 4 tires and a steering wheel. 

It is not just the size of the woofers-but how they are used that makes the REAL difference.  There are some cabinets that use small drivers that go well below 20hz.

And cabinets that use 21" woofers that barely get down to 40hz.

Yes driver size is ONE indicator-but only one of MANY.  Size alone does not guarantee performance.

[Dennis Goh]

Ok, thanks Ivan & all other that chime in.

Think i am stuck with my stuffs unless they go poof...

Really appreciated.

[Bob Leonard]

Dennis, Where are you located?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Ok, thanks Ivan & all other that chime in.

Think i am stuck with my stuffs unless they go poof...

Really appreciated.

Dennis....

There are quite a few threads discussing sub-woofers.  Some are about the gear, some are about the application (what gear for what purpose).  If you can take the time to do some Forum searches and read as much as possible of what has been posted on this subject over the past several years, you'll probably get a lot of your questions answered...and probably have a few more!!!

Welcome to the PSW and good luck.

[Art Welter]

Dennis,

i wen to test the single srx 718 but it failed, however the sound appear when srx 728 comes into play..
i also try couple two piece srx 718 together to VS one piece 728 at the at the distrobutor...sounded different.

So, why is the dual 18 cab go lower then using two 18 cab?
coupling is +3db(extra driver) & +3(voltage to them)...assume they are hung in mid-air.

The SRX 718 is tuned higher than the SRX 728, about 40 Hz Fb (box tuning) vs 35 Hz.
The extra box volume of the 728 (more than double the size of two 718) allows a lower Fb with similar output level.

Ported boxes just don't do much below Fb (box tuning) other than flap.
Few PA boxes are tuned much lower than 35 Hz, as the size vs output  ratio goes down steeply.

Room size, shape, and sub position and listening position also can make a huge difference in low bass sound.
My home stereo uses a sealed dual 12", it rolls off at 12 dB per octave below 40 Hz, in room at the listening position is flat to below 20 Hz, but only around 100 dB.
 
If you really want sub 35 Hz at very loud levels (125 dB or more at a one meter equivalent), you will have to do it yourself, or pay big bucks for the few manufacturers that actually do make things that go that low, DSL being on the short list.

Art

[Dennis Goh]

Dennis, Where are you located?

I am in Singapore.

[Dennis Goh]

The SRX 718 is tuned higher than the SRX 728, about 40 Hz Fb (box tuning) vs 35 Hz.
The extra box volume of the 728 (more than double the size of two 718) allows a lower Fb with similar output level.

Ported boxes just don't do much below Fb (box tuning) other than flap.
Few PA boxes are tuned much lower than 35 Hz, as the size vs output  ratio goes down steeply.

Room size, shape, and sub position and listening position also can make a huge difference in low bass sound.
My home stereo uses a sealed dual 12", it rolls off at 12 dB per octave below 40 Hz, in room at the listening position is flat to below 20 Hz, but only around 100 dB.
 
If you really want sub 35 Hz at very loud levels (125 dB or more at a one meter equivalent), you will have to do it yourself, or pay big bucks for the few manufacturers that actually do make things that go that low, DSL being on the short list.

Art

Ahh  Fb, no wonder .. kind of getting into home theater sub..guess physic is still physics.
Well, there are friends telling me to get multiple sub such as SVS & call it a day.(Place them at my pub & home, then the rest of my stuffs just use for rental)

Dennis....

There are quite a few threads discussing sub-woofers.  Some are about the gear, some are about the application (what gear for what purpose).  If you can take the time to do some Forum searches and read as much as possible of what has been posted on this subject over the past several years, you'll probably get a lot of your questions answered...and probably have a few more!!!

Welcome to the PSW and good luck.

I guess i must have not been searching enough or do not know the exact term to type into search bar.

* As most threads ends with 1) How good is this product. 2) How does it fair. 3) This item vs that item. 4) etc
Which i cannot comprehend over the net as its just base on reading; and diff ppl have diff expectation.

Example: I read 618 xlf is kind of all rounder from various source, seen youtube videos which also seems promising, i ordered 2 piece, then noticed is only overall slightly better which i can make do with other stuffs.
It could be the limitations of some single sound rein enforcement cabs, Qts/Fb/Fs/V those stuffs of sub & some trade-off, maybe i expect too much due to the price i pay as i am a miser.  Or always trying to achieve something with lower price spent, which i guess in reality, cannot be really done.

Just like when playing cars.

[Ivan Beaver]

, maybe i expect too much due to the price i pay as i am a miser.  Or always trying to achieve something with lower price spent, which i guess in reality, cannot be really done.

Just like when playing cars.

You cannot simply compare driver size and "wattage"-even though that is ALL that most people compare

For VALUE you have to look at all the issues-freq response-sensitivity-wattage-distortion-physical size-amp requirements and so forth.

When you do that-you will find that the "cheap products" are not so cheap anymore-as compared to real products.

Yes they may be cheaper-but they won't compete-no matter how many you buy.

You may get louder with more cheap gear-but it will never sound as good as the real gear.

So it all depends on what you are really after-sonic quality-loud noise or a cheap price tag.

[chuck clark]

Too bad you feel you have to stick w/ single 18 cabs. What Mr Art Welter said about the SRX 718's and 728's is true also for the Wharfedales delta 118b and 218b.  The double 18 box is tuned lower. As the 218b is down only 3 db at 30hz you might have your dealer demo a pair for you and see if it gets you there?  The Fb is one of the least fibbed about specs and it is an 18mm plywood box.  I know from personal use that it is a quite solid design and holds up better than many other "cheap" boxes under high SPL duress. Maybe you'll just have to do like the rest of us and double your subs for this EDM stuff! Lol. I'm STILL making payments, but as a dyed in the wool bass freq. enthusiast I feel your pain. Find a box you really like the sound of and then buy as many as you can afford. That way at least you don't end up with a huge pile of stuff you still dont like. Best of luck to you. (although luck rarely has much to do w/ it)

[Dennis Goh]

For VALUE you have to look at all the issues-freq response-sensitivity-wattage-distortion-physical size-amp requirements and so forth.
When you do that-you will find that the "cheap products" are not so cheap anymore-as compared to real products.
You may get louder with more cheap gear-but it will never sound as good as the real gear.

Yup, i understand.
my stuffs still DO NOT have the sound quality but i am lucky that my customers they are not really into the lows..

Too bad you feel you have to stick w/ single 18 cabs. What Mr Art Welter said about the SRX 718's and 728's is true also for the Wharfedales delta 118b and 218b.  The double 18 box is tuned lower. As the 218b is down only 3 db at 30hz you might have your dealer demo a pair for you and see if it gets you there?

Yup, did ask distro to demo those dual 18 cabs from wharfedale ; such as "sho 2800 & 218b", all those dual 18 cab do produce lower feq better.
It also happens with 728/718 when i was purchasing 618 xlf ; "abuse" two 718 vs single 728 with same setting...

As my country have this COE system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement  So transportation will be my problem if i go dual 18 cabs, might have a need to own 2 veh & prices are high.

[ProSoundWeb Community]