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Author Topic: Tis the season  (Read 776 times)

Nathan Lehouillier

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Tis the season
« on: February 13, 2014, 01:44:37 pm »

    So I have been informed that tomorrows show is not in the venue but out in a tent "with heat" on the frozen lake:(
I ask where are we getting power from and I am told the City is putting a light pole out on the ice???
I do have a 6 circuit GFI distro. But... How are they going to ground the pole if its on the water?
I'm not afraid to tell them its not happening so let me know if this is just a bad Idea.
    A sparky has been requested to tie in our 6ga SOOW single phase cable to what I'm not sure yet.
All I can say is the first sign of danger I'm going home. I have better things to do then lose my business
over some ones goofy ideas.
 
Thanks,
Nate
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 01:59:46 pm »

    So I have been informed that tomorrows show is not in the venue but out in a tent "with heat" on the frozen lake:(
I ask where are we getting power from and I am told the City is putting a light pole out on the ice???
I do have a 6 circuit GFI distro. But... How are they going to ground the pole if its on the water?
I'm not afraid to tell them its not happening so let me know if this is just a bad Idea.
    A sparky has been requested to tie in our 6ga SOOW single phase cable to what I'm not sure yet.
All I can say is the first sign of danger I'm going home. I have better things to do then lose my business
over some ones goofy ideas.
 
Thanks,
Nate

First thought.... Ice is an electrical insulator, so this could be safe as long as nothing goes wrong. If the ice is thick enough than it could work. But see #2 below. 

Second thought... if the lighting pole breaks through the ice for any reason you're now swimming in water along with a light pole and a lot of live conductors. Water is a very good conductor, but not enough to trip the primary breakers feeding the pole. There are no GFCI's feeding the lighting pole circuit and there would be a very large gradient voltage in the water which could extend many hundreds of feet.

Third thought... Lots of people could die and you would be in the paper. Don't worry, as we'll be sure to cover it all on this thread. You'll be famous. :P

Actually, I think this is a very bad idea and I'm going to run it by the code monkeys at Mike Holt's forum. I've never seen it, but there MUST be code written prohibiting this sort of crazy idea.

So yeah, are they putting a light pole in a boat or what? We need pictures.

Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 02:21:05 pm »

Yup, sounds like a goofy idea. But if they follow through, I would expect to have separate ground and insulated neutral back to a service point on shore, where the sole neutral-ground bond point would be. There should be no neutral-ground bonding anywhere on the ice; the neutral must be fully insulated throughout the installation.  Also, the utility transformer should be on shore, and there should be a master kill switch -- again, on shore -- for anyone to be able to safely cut the power if something does go horribly wrong.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 02:33:17 pm »

I just posted the question on Mike Holt's forum, and have some responses but no red-flags yet. Everyone seems concerned how they're going to "ground" the pole, but I'm more worried about live conductors in the water.

You can follow the thread at http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=159655&p=1547418#post1547418 and I'll check back later after blowing some more snow from my driveway. :-\

Mike Sokol

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 04:08:08 pm »

You can follow the thread at http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=159655&p=1547418#post1547418 and I'll check back later after blowing some more snow from my driveway. :-\

I just checked back on Mike Holt's forum, and nobody is calling foul right up front. If the pole can be made stable so it doesn't fall over, then the safety ground should be carried on the wire feeds themselves, not from a ground rod. I would wait and see how sturdy the pole situation looks. If it's good and solid (on a semi-trailer bed, for instance) then it will probably be OK. However, if all they did was auger a hole in the ice and drop in a pole, I wouldn't do it. Also, make sure there's no transformer on this "ice pole" and there should be a disconnect on the shore in case something bad DOES happen. In any event, we NEED pictures...

Chris Hindle

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 04:44:00 pm »

    So I have been informed that tomorrows show is not in the venue but out in a tent "with heat" on the frozen lake:(
I ask where are we getting power from and I am told the City is putting a light pole out on the ice???
I do have a 6 circuit GFI distro. But... How are they going to ground the pole if its on the water?
I'm not afraid to tell them its not happening so let me know if this is just a bad Idea.
    A sparky has been requested to tie in our 6ga SOOW single phase cable to what I'm not sure yet.
All I can say is the first sign of danger I'm going home. I have better things to do then lose my business
over some ones goofy ideas.
 
Thanks,
Nate

It's Genny time.........
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Nathan Lehouillier

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 05:43:15 pm »

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses.
    I know out at my ice shack the ice is over 30" thick. Busting thru with anything short of a Great Lakes ice breaker
is not happening. Anything sketchy about the deal when I get there is a deal breaker for me.

Thanks,
Nate 
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 06:10:47 pm »

Up here among the frozen chosen lots of things are done on the ice.  There are many areas in northern New York where building materials are delivered to summer cottages and camps by driving tractor trailers on the ice.  People wait until winter to get building material, major appliances,  New generators, and anything else that is big and heavy because the alternative is a long slow barge ride.

There is ice, and then there is ice.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 06:47:20 pm »

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses.
    I know out at my ice shack the ice is over 30" thick. Busting thru with anything short of a Great Lakes ice breaker
is not happening. Anything sketchy about the deal when I get there is a deal breaker for me.

Thanks,
Nate

Yikes.... That's a lotta ice. Please send us a few pictures of the lighting pole on the ice. We don't get ice like that down south of the Mason Dixon line in Maryland.

Greg Cameron

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Re: Tis the season
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 07:24:59 pm »

How about a high current RCD at the point where power leaves the shore out to the lake? I believe they come in ampacities up to 400A and multi-pole.
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