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Author Topic: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience  (Read 2150 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2014, 04:41:51 pm »

I don't. Respectfully. The ADA requires a reasonable accommodation. If the lighting is part of the service it would not be considered reasonable to not have lights move or change colors. For example, if I use fog or strobe lights, I post that we do so, the patron may then make a decision as to if they want to attend or not. This is different than wheelchair access for example.  It is reasonable to assume that providing wheel chair access would not materially change your artistic content.   What if an artist wanted to do a performance with an artist in a pool?  Would it be reasonable to require them to do it on dry land because someone who can't swim wanted to attend?
In terms of ADA I think you are getting into very disparate areas when you address the content versus the venue.  In this case it is apparently not the physical installation that is at issue but rather the use and programming.  That would seem to at the least be addressed by different portions of the ADA, if even covered.
 
As far as it being part of the performance or service, the programming is an artistic choice but the flip side seems to be that it is then indeed a choice and not a required function or element.  I can see having a difficult time justifying including continuing to include an elective programming element once you have been made aware of it negatively impacting participants or audience members.
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frank kayser

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 05:52:27 pm »

In terms of ADA I think you are getting into very disparate areas when you address the content versus the venue.  In this case it is apparently not the physical installation that is at issue but rather the use and programming.  That would seem to at the least be addressed by different portions of the ADA, if even covered.
 
As far as it being part of the performance or service, the programming is an artistic choice but the flip side seems to be that it is then indeed a choice and not a required function or element.  I can see having a difficult time justifying including continuing to include an elective programming element once you have been made aware of it negatively impacting participants or audience members.

+1
Nailed it, Brad.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2014, 07:39:04 pm »

Respectfully I disagree and I am 90% sure the ADA does as well. Artistic elements, if considered a required function or element in the opinion of the artist, do not have to be changed. 

Lighting is not elective. Just like sound isn't elective.  If someone has tinnitus and the sound is too loud for them, do you turn it down just for them?  Nope, you offer them earplugs or a more traditional lower volume service. 

While I will say that I am not a lawyer or ADA expert, I did give our disability services coordinator a call and she confirmed my understanding of the law and confirmed that our understanding is supported and originates from our legal department.  I will add that our municipality prides itself on our inclusion efforts and we go to great lengths to be as inclusive as possible....

I suppose I am surprised at what you guys consider required and your approach to artistic choice.

Inclusion and the spirit of the ADA means you welcome the person with epilepsy attend, and offer to reserve them a seat on the aisle so that if they are uncomfortable they can easily leave.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 10:28:22 pm »

Respectfully I disagree and I am 90% sure the ADA does as well. Artistic elements, if considered a required function or element in the opinion of the artist, do not have to be changed. 

Lighting is not elective. Just like sound isn't elective.  If someone has tinnitus and the sound is too loud for them, do you turn it down just for them?  Nope, you offer them earplugs or a more traditional lower volume service. 

While I will say that I am not a lawyer or ADA expert, I did give our disability services coordinator a call and she confirmed my understanding of the law and confirmed that our understanding is supported and originates from our legal department.  I will add that our municipality prides itself on our inclusion efforts and we go to great lengths to be as inclusive as possible....

I suppose I am surprised at what you guys consider required and your approach to artistic choice.

Inclusion and the spirit of the ADA means you welcome the person with epilepsy attend, and offer to reserve them a seat on the aisle so that if they are uncomfortable they can easily leave.

It would seem to me odd that a church would choose to push "artistic content" over chasing someone away because of their disability when the lighting effects (or the sound level) are/is not a requirement of conveying the Gospel.  It would be very simple to vary the programming a bit to avoid the problem.  Having someone leave or not attend because they disagree with what was said is very different than having the same result because of how it was presented.  I don't recall this approach being taken by Jesus in the Bible.  I actually recall him coming to people where they were in their lives and in their infirmities.
If this is a one time, special effect I don't see a problem as long as the congregation is informed but if this is a repetitive issue then I would think that a church would want to accommodate whether or not the ADA said you should.


Lee
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 10:29:43 pm »

And that Lee, I agree with completely.
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frank kayser

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2014, 11:20:22 pm »

Calien,
It was not my intent to get either of us wrapped around the axle on this.  I'll be the first to say I do not understand lighting as it applies to church services.  But my understanding is irrelevant.

I remember when the impact and rules of ADA compliance first hit.  It impacted website and design down to its roots.  Individual managers (in a couple hundred thousand workforce) were personally on the hook if their sites did not meet criteria.  That type of "strong-arm" tactic had never been used before nor since. Quite a chilling effect on development.

The other thing is I live in a litigious prone area.

Granted, the example is probably more than a bit off point, and I've become hyper-sensitive to even approaching the legality line. 

You've done due diligence consulting with your legal team.  I'm not a litigator.  Listen to them. 
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Brad Weber

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2014, 11:13:49 am »

Respectfully I disagree and I am 90% sure the ADA does as well.
One important thing is to understand that there are multiple components to ADA and it is Title III and the ADA Standards for Accessible Design that are usually referenced when discussing public accommodations and actual facilities owned by private entities.  Title I relates to employment and Title II to State and Local Governments.
 
My point is that while Title III does specifically address direct facility and construction related aspects, I do not believe it addresses areas such as audio reinforcement systems or performance lighting systems or their use except in terms of specific requirements such as accessibility and Assistive Listening Systems.  The issues of audio and lighting system performance, programming, content, etc. seem to be outside the purview of ADA except possibly as related to employees and aspects directly related to their employment.
 
Lighting is not elective. Just like sound isn't elective.  If someone has tinnitus and the sound is too loud for them, do you turn it down just for them?  Nope, you offer them earplugs or a more traditional lower volume service.
I'm not sure I understand your point.  Performance lighting and sound are elective in terms of both the systems and the especially the systems' operation and related content.  I think the whole point here is that other than the few specific ADA requirements which do not even apply to many churches,  your lighting and sound systems and how you use them are completely discretionary.  You may choose to use certain design elements or operate the systems a certain way but those are all discretionary choices.
 
Given that, while I fully embrace the importance of artistic vision, I personally do not understand an 'artist' for a church feeling their 'artistic vision' is more important than the chuch members' safety and comfort.  I believe that determining whether a lighting programming cue or the audio levels that cause physical problems for some church members are appropriate is a matter to be decided by church leadership rather than by just the 'artist' or system operator.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 03:12:35 pm »

Please bear with me a moment... putting flame suit on... zipping it up (whew, it's hot in here already!)...


I am having difficulty figuring out how the artistic choices of lighting has anything at all to do with the mission of the Church, which is to spread the Gospel of forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

Oh, I see that you are trying to make church attractive. Attractive to the flesh? The flesh isn't what you're preaching to, and the spirit cares nothing about appearances.

Might be time to critically evaluate how you are delivering your message. It seems to me you are concerned more about yourself and what you find pleasing than about the souls of your congregation.


Ducking out... quickly.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2014, 07:24:53 pm »


Oh, I see that you are trying to make church attractive. Attractive to the flesh? The flesh isn't what you're preaching to, and the spirit cares nothing about appearances.


Try telling that to the Mega Churches.   ::)

And to add a little to the discussion; I remember reading this and thinking that not all churches are for all people.  What if instead of the use of a strobe light, we were talking about a church that preferred Christian rap music instead of something more main stream?  You would probably go off looking for a church that better suited your preferences.  Put up some signs and let them make the choice.  That said, exactly how important can a strobe light be to this service?   
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 07:36:20 pm by Lee Douglas »
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Jeff Carter

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Re: How would you handle services with Photosentitive Epileptic in Audience
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2014, 08:34:04 pm »

Please bear with me a moment... putting flame suit on... zipping it up (whew, it's hot in here already!)...


I am having difficulty figuring out how the artistic choices of lighting has anything at all to do with the mission of the Church, which is to spread the Gospel of forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

Oh, I see that you are trying to make church attractive. Attractive to the flesh? The flesh isn't what you're preaching to, and the spirit cares nothing about appearances.

Might be time to critically evaluate how you are delivering your message. It seems to me you are concerned more about yourself and what you find pleasing than about the souls of your congregation.


Ducking out... quickly.

I don't entirely disagree... but what's your basis for putting lighting in a different category from the other forms of visual art we embrace in our church buildings (stained glass, paintings, banners, or statues, for example)?

Carrying the same argument a little further you could easily arrive at the conclusion (as many of my own Amish ancestors did) that having a church building at all is not a necessary part of Christian community-building. Wonder what they'd think of their pony-tailed great-great-grandson pushing up the kick drum fader on the digital console in a 700-seat auditorium on Sunday morning...

I think there's a place for lighting done well, in a manner that helps to create an inviting environment in the auditorium and tell the Gospel story alongside the preaching, lyrics, music, and whatever other art you might find in a church service. But it's got to mesh with everything else that's going on and not call attention to itself and be distracting. Less is usually more.
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