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Author Topic: Noise gate for close quarters  (Read 11455 times)

Dan Crocker

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Noise gate for close quarters
« on: January 23, 2014, 12:57:30 AM »

Our church band is crammed into a relatively small space. We have an assortment of dynamic vocal mics, mic'ed guitar amps, an electronic drum kit with a speaker for a monitor, bass monitor, and the occasional choir mic. I was thinking it might be helpful to enable a noise gate for all of the mic inputs to help isolate things. Is this a common practice? I'm assuming that I should be able to find a threshold that lets me eliminate other sources while keeping the main one for each mic.
Is this a bad idea? If not, any suggestions how how to set it up (other than just tuning the threshold by watching levels and listening)?
In case it matters, we will be using a Roland M200i console.
Thanks,
Dan
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 01:53:01 AM »

Is there an actual problem with what you have now which you are trying to eliminate?


Steve.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 03:08:11 AM »

Dan, I don't think the gates will help your situation very much. I mix a fairly loud band with mic'd amps, mic'd acoustic drums, vocal mics, and other instruments occasionally all in a very small church(150 peeps max, maybe less). We get a decent, if loud, mix for the most part. We're on an analog board and don't have gates on every channel(I have 6chs of comps/gates) but even then the only gates I use are for the noisy(hissing) bass amp and kick drum. I use the expanders on a couple of vocal mics because it helps keep them from feedbacking when the comps release though it doesn't help with the stage noise. In the end the loudest sound at the mic wins...

To sum it up you might find gates useful on noisy amps(only to eliminate hissing or other bad noises that amps can make sometimes) and acoustic drums but they make other things(vocals) sound weird if their set where they do any good.

Here's our setup(keys, 3 Vox, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass, violin, and acoustic drums) from this week btw:


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« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:10:24 AM by Tommy Peel »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 07:31:19 AM »

Our church band is crammed into a relatively small space. We have an assortment of dynamic vocal mics, mic'ed guitar amps, an electronic drum kit with a speaker for a monitor, bass monitor, and the occasional choir mic. I was thinking it might be helpful to enable a noise gate for all of the mic inputs to help isolate things. Is this a common practice? I'm assuming that I should be able to find a threshold that lets me eliminate other sources while keeping the main one for each mic.
Is this a bad idea? If not, any suggestions how how to set it up (other than just tuning the threshold by watching levels and listening)?
In case it matters, we will be using a Roland M200i console.
Thanks,
Dan
One of the problems with noise gates that they can kill dynamic range.  Once you set them "tight enough" to eliminate other sources-then if the source drops down in level-the gate cut in and kills the source.

yes on some things they can be helpful-but for isolation-rarely is this the case-including drums.

Unless the musicians only have one level-then you can use them for isolation.
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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 09:11:46 AM »

Our church band is crammed into a relatively small space. We have an assortment of dynamic vocal mics, mic'ed guitar amps, an electronic drum kit with a speaker for a monitor, bass monitor, and the occasional choir mic. I was thinking it might be helpful to enable a noise gate for all of the mic inputs to help isolate things. Is this a common practice? I'm assuming that I should be able to find a threshold that lets me eliminate other sources while keeping the main one for each mic.
Is this a bad idea? If not, any suggestions how how to set it up (other than just tuning the threshold by watching levels and listening)?
In case it matters, we will be using a Roland M200i console.
Thanks,
Dan

Dan...

The ON/OFF nature of gates will be very audible on vocal mics.  Remember, your vocal mics are picking up a bunch of other stuff, so when the voice opens the gate, the STUFF jumps up as well.

If your desk has downward expanders, that's what you want.  Very smooth, not hard ON/OFF, gentle and workable reduction of bleed from the mics into the mix.  This is one of the features I miss in not using my StudioLive so much anymore.

Otherwise...placement, pattern and mic technique.  Not to mention getting your band amps down to a dull roar and not pointed at the mics or the crowd.
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 10:21:38 AM »

Dan,

I don't recommend using gates for that purpose.

Any musician worth their salt will be able to play just as well softly as they will when going all-out.  That is a huge factor that contributes to a good show, and gives me confidence that they truly know what they're doing.

If your noise gate has a "depth" knob, you can choose the level of attenuation after dropping below threshold.
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 11:10:49 AM »

Thanks all :)...
The main thing I've noticed is that the choir mics tend to pick up the drum monitor. It's not like I've identified a big issue at this point though. I just thought there might be a recommended baseline use of gates for isolation. Clearly, there isn't :).
The Roland does have expanders so I could play with that.
Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 01:06:28 PM »

Thanks all :)...
The main thing I've noticed is that the choir mics tend to pick up the drum monitor. It's not like I've identified a big issue at this point though. I just thought there might be a recommended baseline use of gates for isolation. Clearly, there isn't :).
The Roland does have expanders so I could play with that.
Thanks,
Dan

Move the drum monitor.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 01:27:01 PM »

Move the drum monitor.

Thank you.  An acoustic solution to an acoustic problem.
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 01:34:48 PM »

Easier said than done. We have very little flexibility given the amount of space... :(
Dan
Move the drum monitor.
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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 01:36:54 PM »

Easier said than done. We have very little flexibility given the amount of space... :(
Dan

Smaller powered/unpowered monitor mounted on a mic stand pointed at the drummers good ear...

There's always a way.  You just have to find it and abandon the excuses for why it can't be done.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 01:38:10 PM »

Smaller powered/unpowered monitor mounted on a mic stand pointed at the drummers good ear...

There's always a way.  You just have to find it and abandon the excuses for why it can't be done.

"I embrace solutions, not excuses."  J. Taffer, "Bar Rescue"
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 01:49:13 PM »

Smaller powered/unpowered monitor mounted on a mic stand pointed at the drummers good ear...
To the OP: headphones (isolation-type, please...there are enough deaf drummers out there) or IEM-style earphones may be another option to consider.
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 02:00:09 PM »

Saying that a proposed "solution" doesn't work (or is difficult) for a given situation is not always an excuse, it's sometimes just the reality :). Also, I took the original response to mean "move the monitor further away" but I suppose I could also try to reorient it to control how much of it is picked up by the choir mic. This is also not easy given the constrained space but I will give it a shot.
Your suggestion sounds a little more promising. I will give some more thought to the monitor the drummer uses. Maybe there is a better choice that lets him hear himself but doesn't require it to be so loud.
BTW, we have been considering IEMs but, for now, budgetary considerations have squashed that idea :(.
Thanks,
Dan


Smaller powered/unpowered monitor mounted on a mic stand pointed at the drummers good ear...

There's always a way.  You just have to find it and abandon the excuses for why it can't be done.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 02:02:52 PM »

I took the original response to mean "move the monitor further away"

If instead, you move it closer, it can be quieter,


Steve.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 02:07:23 PM »

Saying that a proposed "solution" doesn't work (or is difficult) for a given situation is not always an excuse, it's sometimes just the reality :). Also, I took the original response to mean "move the monitor further away" but I suppose I could also try to reorient it to control how much of it is picked up by the choir mic. This is also not easy given the constrained space but I will give it a shot.
Your suggestion sounds a little more promising. I will give some more thought to the monitor the drummer uses. Maybe there is a better choice that lets him hear himself but doesn't require it to be so loud.
BTW, we have been considering IEMs but, for now, budgetary considerations have squashed that idea :(.
Thanks,
Dan

And the proposed solution is fast and easy.  If it doesn't work, it was also free... :)

I understand how churches work, big and small.  Change of most any type is not considered, let alone embraced.  Be brave, Dan.  Fight the good fight.

And remember, the noise should be joyful, not painful... or least inspiring, not deafening.

At any rate, the point in my response to Dick Rees is that the most effective solutions to acoustic problems are not contained in a box with a cord, pilot lights or price tags.
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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »

Saying that a proposed "solution" doesn't work (or is difficult) for a given situation is not always an excuse, it's sometimes just the reality :). Also, I took the original response to mean "move the monitor further away" but I suppose I could also try to reorient it to control how much of it is picked up by the choir mic. This is also not easy given the constrained space but I will give it a shot.
Your suggestion sounds a little more promising. I will give some more thought to the monitor the drummer uses. Maybe there is a better choice that lets him hear himself but doesn't require it to be so loud.
BTW, we have been considering IEMs but, for now, budgetary considerations have squashed that idea :(.
Thanks,
Dan

Move it to where it works.  If "where it works" is in the drummers ear, get something that you can put there.

You can also use a small shield in the direct line between the drum monitor and the choir mics.  Just like when a soccer or hockey goalie comes out of the goal to cut off a scoring lane, locate the shield close to the monitor and you can cut off an amazing amount of sound with a small chunk of plexiglass. 

I made some such shields which mount on some surplus wire music stand bases to place between cymbals and vocal mics.  They're no bigger than a couple of square feet, are see through, can be placed where you need them, etc, etc.

Just don't point the monitor at the mics... 
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 02:11:04 PM »

Sorry, I was talking about not being able to move the drum monitor much further away from the choir mic. I can see it wasn't all that clear :).
I do think one of the issues is that the drummer is very close to the piano. While his monitor is close to him, he still needs to turn it up to hear himself. If I can move him further from the piano, I think it would help. I actually play bass in the band and am also close to the piano because the drummer is, so I'm up kinda loud too. I guess I need to think about how to rearrange a few of the musicians...

If instead, you move it closer, it can be quieter,


Steve.
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 02:15:43 PM »

I had a good chuckle at this one. Sounds like you've been involved in church music :). What makes things more tricky here is that it's a catholic church. Music is not supposed to be the main focal point. So, we're shoved off into a corner. Fortunately, good music is valued so I do have a decent sound system and a good equipment. But, I can't propose a stage or anything terribly obtrusive. :).
But, I do have some latitude and a relatively open-minded pastor.
Thanks
Dan


And the proposed solution is fast and easy.  If it doesn't work, it was also free... :)

I understand how churches work, big and small.  Change of most any type is not considered, let alone embraced.  Be brave, Dan.  Fight the good fight.

And remember, the noise should be joyful, not painful... or least inspiring, not deafening.

At any rate, the point in my response to Dick Rees is that the most effective solutions to acoustic problems are not contained in a box with a cord, pilot lights or price tags.
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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 02:16:47 PM »

An interesting idea...
Thanks,
Dan

Move it to where it works.  If "where it works" is in the drummers ear, get something that you can put there.

You can also use a small shield in the direct line between the drum monitor and the choir mics.  Just like when a soccer or hockey goalie comes out of the goal to cut off a scoring lane, locate the shield close to the monitor and you can cut off an amazing amount of sound with a small chunk of plexiglass. 

I made some such shields which mount on some surplus wire music stand bases to place between cymbals and vocal mics.  They're no bigger than a couple of square feet, are see through, can be placed where you need them, etc, etc.

Just don't point the monitor at the mics...
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 02:32:14 PM »

I had a good chuckle at this one. Sounds like you've been involved in church music :). What makes things more tricky here is that it's a catholic church. Music is not supposed to be the main focal point. So, we're shoved off into a corner. Fortunately, good music is valued so I do have a decent sound system and a good equipment. But, I can't propose a stage or anything terribly obtrusive. :).
But, I do have some latitude and a relatively open-minded pastor.
Thanks
Dan

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Jay Barracato

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 02:37:09 PM »

Dan, to my ear 3-6 db of gain reduction on a couple of channels vis an expander is far more effective in a live mix than trying for isolation. Too many techs take it way too far.

I would also suggest carefully listening to those channels in some headphones. What specifically in the drum monitor is bleeding? Does it have to be that loud? can you deal with it by eq? Etc.

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Dan Crocker

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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 07:13:05 PM »

Thanks. I'll play with this as well.
Dan

Dan, to my ear 3-6 db of gain reduction on a couple of channels vis an expander is far more effective in a live mix than trying for isolation. Too many techs take it way too far.

I would also suggest carefully listening to those channels in some headphones. What specifically in the drum monitor is bleeding? Does it have to be that loud? can you deal with it by eq? Etc.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
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Re: Noise gate for close quarters
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 07:13:05 PM »


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