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Author Topic: Impressed, now further Danley talk  (Read 10572 times)

David Hoover

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Impressed, now further Danley talk
« on: January 16, 2014, 08:26:24 PM »

A little background:

At our church where I work, we have been using Danley subwoofers for a long time (TH118's, THmini's, CS30) and really like them. I have been researching them a long time and turned the team on to them where which we heard demos. Now, we just designed and installed a commons system using a DBH218, 4SM60f's, 3 SHMicros, and we are waiting for one of the first SBH-10's to come in.  I used the brand new DDT3D software to plot all the speakers and it was accurate. The results were consistent with the plots! As with most teams, change happens slow, but we are hearing the apparent difference of using Danley Sound Labs technology while saving bundles of money over other competitors. With no EQ, we are getting great sound. It is an 80'x80' square and we have the speakers dialed back 10dB only to hit mid 90's dBA. Now that being done with the lowest end speakers they make keeps me wondering how their larger speakers perform.

Pondering this, how would 2 SH96's for example with a BC415 all powered, perform outdoors for outreaches? We keep renting 4 box Flex Arrays a side which gets pricey from a local place. What kind of performance and headroom can I expect from something like this? The specs look as if that set up would give us plenty of headroom for thousands outdoors. It would still be small enough for small venues as well.

Thanks guys!!!
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 07:22:23 AM »

A little background:

At our church where I work, we have been using Danley subwoofers for a long time (TH118's, THmini's, CS30) and really like them. I have been researching them a long time and turned the team on to them where which we heard demos. Now, we just designed and installed a commons system using a DBH218, 4SM60f's, 3 SHMicros, and we are waiting for one of the first SBH-10's to come in.  I used the brand new DDT3D software to plot all the speakers and it was accurate. The results were consistent with the plots! As with most teams, change happens slow, but we are hearing the apparent difference of using Danley Sound Labs technology while saving bundles of money over other competitors. With no EQ, we are getting great sound. It is an 80'x80' square and we have the speakers dialed back 10dB only to hit mid 90's dBA. Now that being done with the lowest end speakers they make keeps me wondering how their larger speakers perform.

Pondering this, how would 2 SH96's for example with a BC415 all powered, perform outdoors for outreaches? We keep renting 4 box Flex Arrays a side which gets pricey from a local place. What kind of performance and headroom can I expect from something like this? The specs look as if that set up would give us plenty of headroom for thousands outdoors. It would still be small enough for small venues as well.

Thanks guys!!!
It would be fair to say the SH96 would sound much better than a 4 box array...in my opinion.
 You might be very surprised at the difference between a properly designed "point source" and any kind of "line array"

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2014, 12:15:23 PM »

. Now that being done with the lowest end speakers they make keeps me wondering how their larger speakers perform.

Pondering this, how would 2 SH96's for example with a BC415 all powered, perform outdoors for outreaches? We keep renting 4 box Flex Arrays a side which gets pricey from a local place. What kind of performance and headroom can I expect from something like this? The specs look as if that set up would give us plenty of headroom for thousands outdoors. It would still be small enough for small venues as well.

Thanks guys!!!

A single loudspeaker is ALWAYS going to sound better than multiples-of any manufacturer.

That is the very reason we make mostly wide coverage loudspeakers of varying output levels.

Both the SH96 and the SM60 employ the same basic technology-getting all the drivers to work as a single unit.  Just how loud is the question.

The SH96 (or SH96HO) is a good choice with a BC415.

I would seriously look at the SH96HO for a couple of reasons.  It does cost more-but besides that here are the differences.

The SH96 and SH96HO are the same physical size and weight so that is a wash.

They both use the same lows and mids-so that is a wash.

THE "weak point" on the Sh96 is the HF driver.  The SH96HO is the same cabinet-but with a coax HF (as used in a coupe of the Jericho products)-a different crossover and switching options on the rear panel.

The SH96 is a passive 8 ohm box-and it can be hard to "power" with small amps-requiring the amp to be bridged.

The SH96HO can be switched to be passive or biamp on the rear panel.  The low impedance can be switched to be 2 or 8 ohms.  Most people use it in 2 ohm mode-so that a single amp channel can driver a single cabinet.

The SH96HO has a higher sensitivity (the specs on the website are not entirely correct) and will get a good bit louder.

Also the since the SH96HO uses a coax HF, the HF extension is greater and with less "breakup" than the SH96 (which uses a 1.4" compression driver).

To me the extra benefits of the HO version are worth the money.

One of the big benefits of either version is that whole front of the cabinet is the horn mouth-so it has pattern control down low in both vertical and horizontal coverage patterns.
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Ivan Beaver
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 03:08:20 PM »



 (the specs on the website are not entirely correct)


WHAT!?!
Oh the horror  ;D
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David Hoover

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 01:51:43 AM »

A single loudspeaker is ALWAYS going to sound better than multiples-of any manufacturer.

That is the very reason we make mostly wide coverage loudspeakers of varying output levels.

Both the SH96 and the SM60 employ the same basic technology-getting all the drivers to work as a single unit.  Just how loud is the question.

The SH96 (or SH96HO) is a good choice with a BC415.

I would seriously look at the SH96HO for a couple of reasons.  It does cost more-but besides that here are the differences.

The SH96 and SH96HO are the same physical size and weight so that is a wash.

They both use the same lows and mids-so that is a wash.

THE "weak point" on the Sh96 is the HF driver.  The SH96HO is the same cabinet-but with a coax HF (as used in a coupe of the Jericho products)-a different crossover and switching options on the rear panel.

The SH96 is a passive 8 ohm box-and it can be hard to "power" with small amps-requiring the amp to be bridged.

The SH96HO can be switched to be passive or biamp on the rear panel.  The low impedance can be switched to be 2 or 8 ohms.  Most people use it in 2 ohm mode-so that a single amp channel can driver a single cabinet.

The SH96HO has a higher sensitivity (the specs on the website are not entirely correct) and will get a good bit louder.

Also the since the SH96HO uses a coax HF, the HF extension is greater and with less "breakup" than the SH96 (which uses a 1.4" compression driver).

To me the extra benefits of the HO version are worth the money.

One of the big benefits of either version is that whole front of the cabinet is the horn mouth-so it has pattern control down low in both vertical and horizontal coverage patterns.

So with the proposed one SH96HO per side and a BC415 all powered, would we be able to comfortably sit in the upper 90's dBA with plenty of low end at about 100ft back outside? What are the power requirements for the SH96HO and BC415 powered?

We had 4 TSW-218's (2 per side) at a last outdoor event and I was basically clipping the whole time. The specs look like I would be good with a BC415.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 10:55:32 AM »

So with the proposed one SH96HO per side and a BC415 all powered, would we be able to comfortably sit in the upper 90's dBA with plenty of low end at about 100ft back outside? What are the power requirements for the SH96HO and BC415 powered?

We had 4 TSW-218's (2 per side) at a last outdoor event and I was basically clipping the whole time. The specs look like I would be good with a BC415.
Yes you could do that level and much more with no problem with a single BC415 and SH96Ho per side.

Because of the high output capability of each of those products-the internal amps are not quite "normal.

The BC415 has 2x 4000 watt amps while the SH96HO has 1x4000 watt and 1x 1000 watt amp.

You can order them in either 120 or 220V versions-so that depends on your power situation.

If running on 120V, and pushing the BC415 real hard-then I would suggest 2 20A circuits for it.  THe Sh96HO is fine off of a single 20A.  That would be for EACH side of the PA.

At lower levels (but still pretty loud) you could probably get by with a single 20A per side.  The high sensitivity of the cabinets allows you to get pretty loud without having to dump a lot of power into them.

The amps are very efficient-so there is not a lot of wasted power draw.
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David Hoover

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 11:09:50 PM »

Yes you could do that level and much more with no problem with a single BC415 and SH96Ho per side.

Because of the high output capability of each of those products-the internal amps are not quite "normal.

The BC415 has 2x 4000 watt amps while the SH96HO has 1x4000 watt and 1x 1000 watt amp.

You can order them in either 120 or 220V versions-so that depends on your power situation.

If running on 120V, and pushing the BC415 real hard-then I would suggest 2 20A circuits for it.  THe Sh96HO is fine off of a single 20A.  That would be for EACH side of the PA.

At lower levels (but still pretty loud) you could probably get by with a single 20A per side.  The high sensitivity of the cabinets allows you to get pretty loud without having to dump a lot of power into them.

The amps are very efficient-so there is not a lot of wasted power draw.

Ivan, thanks for the reply and your help! I hope to be able to hear the SH96HO's on a live band sometime. That would be awesome! I hope soon we start moving this direction. When I compare, these boxes cost 1/3 the price per output (ish) and require less amplification. I mean in any professional situation I hope that we are looking at good stewardship of resources, but also an awesome experience. It is unfathomable how many resources are wasted when most traditional or line arrays come into the picture. Years ago ever since I got into pro audio, I have always been struggling to get and never could achieve the sound quality I desire. Going from home/car/studio audio into PA applications, quality always suffers. I think about this every time I mix. This is why new technology like this excites me. When can we get what we want in the mix instead of settling on what the speakers "sound" like. Should speakers have a "sound" in PA use? I don't think so... I can't say I have ever mixed on speakers that are transparent. Hopefully I can get to mix on some Danley full range cabinets soon!! I guess my little digression basically says that I like the DSL philosophy.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 07:40:29 AM »

Ivan, thanks for the reply and your help! I hope to be able to hear the SH96HO's on a live band sometime. That would be awesome! I hope soon we start moving this direction. When I compare, these boxes cost 1/3 the price per output (ish) and require less amplification. I mean in any professional situation I hope that we are looking at good stewardship of resources, but also an awesome experience. It is unfathomable how many resources are wasted when most traditional or line arrays come into the picture. Years ago ever since I got into pro audio, I have always been struggling to get and never could achieve the sound quality I desire. Going from home/car/studio audio into PA applications, quality always suffers. I think about this every time I mix. This is why new technology like this excites me. When can we get what we want in the mix instead of settling on what the speakers "sound" like. Should speakers have a "sound" in PA use? I don't think so... I can't say I have ever mixed on speakers that are transparent. Hopefully I can get to mix on some Danley full range cabinets soon!! I guess my little digression basically says that I like the DSL philosophy.
What we are trying to do is to give you a "white canvas" in which to "paint your audio picture".  Not something that already has a color of its own.

But this can be a double edged sword.  If the source material (either live or recorded) is not good-you will hear all the defects/warts etc. 

But when it is good-then you will hear all the greatness.

But for some people they need a system that covers up the defects.

I have heard this often

"I want a system to be very accurate, but I want sound better than I normally do".  So do you want accurate or colored?  You can't have both at the same time.
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Jeff Baumgartner

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2014, 01:10:01 PM »

I will second Ivans response about Danleys being crap in=> crap out.
When we were demoing the Danleys in our arena, Chad from Danley flew a SH96 (I think it was)
next to our then current EAW MQ system. We fed them audio that we would normally playback during a game. All of the decision makers actually chose the old EAWs over the Danleys because they sounded "better". Chad then played back much higher quality audio through the Danleys and then it was an instant win. The EAWs covered up all of the compression/artifacts/garbage. The Danleys reproduced it exactly as it was fed to them.
We ended up with the SH96HO's and I couldn't be more happy with them.
I can hit 105dB at 100' and hold it all day if I wanted.
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Jeff Baumgartner

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David Hoover

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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 03:23:39 PM »

I will second Ivans response about Danleys being crap in=> crap out.
When we were demoing the Danleys in our arena, Chad from Danley flew a SH96 (I think it was)
next to our then current EAW MQ system. We fed them audio that we would normally playback during a game. All of the decision makers actually chose the old EAWs over the Danleys because they sounded "better". Chad then played back much higher quality audio through the Danleys and then it was an instant win. The EAWs covered up all of the compression/artifacts/garbage. The Danleys reproduced it exactly as it was fed to them.
We ended up with the SH96HO's and I couldn't be more happy with them.
I can hit 105dB at 100' and hold it all day if I wanted.

Awesome.  The school where we have our church just got word that the school board wants to install a new sound system.  Just out of kindness, because our church is large and has been blessed with many company's contacts, I helped put together with the help of a friend's company, a fully installed system with two SH96's, and that new QSC 4 channel amp with DSP for their price range.  I believe they will be blown away by the double or triple amount of output and quality for the money they will get.  I am just praying that it goes through for them.  We have been blessed with favor from the school and board.  We are in there every week and I would love to see them have great audio for another two decades from the SH96's.  I just installed a Behringer X32 for them with a soon to be digital snake and fixed an amp.  They have some 20 year old 18" two way JBL speakers that really only cover about half the venue.  I'm praying it goes through because it will be a well deserved upgrade for them after having very old dying equipment.

One thing that I was thinking of: what is a cost effective subwoofer addition to the SH96's?  If the plan goes through, our church will mostly likely purchase a Danley subwoofer or subwoofers and leave them set up so the school can use them as well.  It looks like we might be forced to run split subs under the flown speakers (instead of a center cluster).  Maybe a DBH218 per side or two TH118's per side?  My original intent was a BC415 in the middle.  I don't know that it will fly because of "looks." Although, smaller centered subs would be acceptable.

Thanks
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Re: Impressed, now further Danley talk
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 03:23:39 PM »


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