ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Fader as compared to main levels  (Read 12861 times)

Dan Crocker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 03:17:25 PM »

Thanks again for all the help.
This morning, I messed with the console a bit. I experimented with two microphones. One of them is for lectors. It's a condenser microphone. The other mic I tried was a Shure SM58 (dynamic). As it turns out, the overall output volume level I got with the SM58 seems to be in the right range. I set the preamp gain so the signal was about -12dBFS. The channel and main faders were set to about -6dBFS and the associated subgroup was set to 0dB. It was plenty loud but not ridiculously loud. I suppose I could turn down the power amp a bit, but for now I'm not going to.
What puzzled me was the loudness with the condenser mic. With the input gain set such that the signal level was also -12dBFS and main fader set the same as above, I needed to reduce the channel fader significantly to get the same loudness as with the dynamic mic. I was expecting that if the signal level coming from the preamp was the same for both mics, the fader settings for the channel and the mains would more or less be the same. What am I missing? Note that the dynamic mic was plugging into a channel that was going through a subgroup while the condenser mic wasn't, but the subgroup fader was set to 0dBFS so, as far as I understand, this shouldn't have changed the signal level.
Logged

Tommy Peel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1468
  • Longview, Texas
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 03:51:46 PM »

Thanks again for all the help.
This morning, I messed with the console a bit. I experimented with two microphones. One of them is for lectors. It's a condenser microphone. The other mic I tried was a Shure SM58 (dynamic). As it turns out, the overall output volume level I got with the SM58 seems to be in the right range. I set the preamp gain so the signal was about -12dBFS. The channel and main faders were set to about -6dBFS and the associated subgroup was set to 0dB. It was plenty loud but not ridiculously loud. I suppose I could turn down the power amp a bit, but for now I'm not going to.
What puzzled me was the loudness with the condenser mic. With the input gain set such that the signal level was also -12dBFS and main fader set the same as above, I needed to reduce the channel fader significantly to get the same loudness as with the dynamic mic. I was expecting that if the signal level coming from the preamp was the same for both mics, the fader settings for the channel and the mains would more or less be the same. What am I missing? Note that the dynamic mic was plugging into a channel that was going through a subgroup while the condenser mic wasn't, but the subgroup fader was set to 0dBFS so, as far as I understand, this shouldn't have changed the signal level.

To put it simply different mics have different output levels. IME condenser mics tend to be hotter and require less gain to get the same signal level as a dynamic. What you're experiencing is perfectly normal. You'll want to set each channel so that it averages -18dBFS(or 0dB in Analog Land like I am) regardless what position the gain knob ends up in.

Here's the gain knobs(top row) on my mixer; most of the channels end up averaging 0dB(which is equivalent to -18dBFS for you).
Logged

Dan Crocker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 03:58:55 PM »

What you described is what I expected. However, what I found (or think I found) is that, even when the signal level was the same coming out of the preamp, the condenser mic was louder than the dynamic mic (with channel and main fader settings the same for both mic types). This makes no sense to me at all. If the consensus is that this isn't possible, then there must be something else going on with the settings for the two channels I used.

To put it simply different mics have different output levels. IME condenser mics tend to be hotter and require less gain to get the same signal level as a dynamic. What you're experiencing is perfectly normal. You'll want to set each channel so that it averages -18dBFS(or 0dB in Analog Land like I am) regardless what position the gain knob ends up in.

Here's the gain knobs(top row) on my mixer; most of the channels end up averaging 0dB(which is equivalent to -18dBFS for you).

Logged

Patrick Tracy

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 513
  • Boulder, CO, USA
    • Boulder Sound Guy
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 04:07:43 PM »

I set the preamp gain so the signal was about -12dBFS. The channel and main faders were set to about -6dBFS and the associated subgroup was set to 0dB.

Numbers in the dBFS and dBu scales indicate absolute signal levels. Fader settings in dB simply add to or subtract from the level. It's a critical distinction.

Dan Crocker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 04:46:16 PM »

Ok, but shouldn't I expect that with the same signal level going into the channel section, the same fader setting would result in the same perceived loudness, regardless of the mic type?

Numbers in the dBFS and dBu scales indicate absolute signal levels. Fader settings in dB simply add to or subtract from the level. It's a critical distinction.
Logged

Patrick Tracy

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 513
  • Boulder, CO, USA
    • Boulder Sound Guy
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 04:53:13 PM »

Ok, but shouldn't I expect that with the same signal level going into the channel section, the same fader setting would result in the same perceived loudness, regardless of the mic type?

More or less, but frequency content can make perceived loudness diverge from objective measures.

Dan Crocker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2014, 05:06:57 PM »

I don't think what I heard was due to differences in frequency content; it was me saying "check" a lot in both cases :). I know the mics will have different frequency responses, but the channel fader difference was at least 10dB. I guess the next step would be to plug both mics into exactly the same channel and A/B them that way. Maybe there's a difference in the channel settings that I'm missing or the subgroup is doing something I'm not expecting.
Thanks :)

More or less, but frequency content can make perceived loudness diverge from objective measures.
Logged

Tommy Peel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1468
  • Longview, Texas
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2014, 05:37:48 PM »

What you described is what I expected. However, what I found (or think I found) is that, even when the signal level was the same coming out of the preamp, the condenser mic was louder than the dynamic mic (with channel and main fader settings the same for both mic types). This makes no sense to me at all. If the consensus is that this isn't possible, then there must be something else going on with the settings for the two channels I used.
Just re-read your post that I responded to and had misunderstood what you were looking at. IMO unless you think you're having some issues with your console you may be overthinking this a bit. I set my gains for an average around 0dB(but never clipping) initially and if the channel fader ends up in the "butter zone" around 0dB I call it good. If a certain channel ends up out of the "butter zone" I adjust the channel gain accordingly if it's a channel that requires very much attention. If all the faders are riding too low or high you can adjust the main fader or system gain to compensate too though my main fader is almost always at 0dB.

Slightly related story:
One time we were doing a gig(youth rally) in a pavilion instead of the small church we usually play in and I was getting some distortion(clipping) on the vocal channels though no red lights were illuminating on the board.... I had(and still do have) a Shure DFR11EQ digital equalizer setup so that the vocals came out of sub group 3, went to the DFR, and came back to the mixer though an open aux return(I don't have any subgroup inserts). Anyway after scratching my head a few minutes(this was during the soundcheck/practice) I looked at the rack(below the mixer) and saw the red light coming on sporadically on the DFR. Ended up pulling the subgroup fader down several dB and raising the aux return level to compensate and everything was fine for the rally.
Logged

Jason Lucas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 806
  • Hillsboro, OR, USA
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2014, 08:03:11 PM »

Dan you said you use an M-200i, right?



I set the "sensitivity" knob (red knob in picture) to wherever it needs to be so that my meter hovers around -18 (also highlighted in red). Sometimes this setting is different for different inputs. Sometimes it's different for two different people using the same mic (we have one singer I set to -13 and another to -20, same mic). I usually have my main fader somewhere around -3dB. If I need more or less main to get all my channel faders to be roughly around 0dB, I turn it up or down.

Signal level and perceived volume are very different. Just the other day had two people both talking in two different mics, had their signal levels very close to each other, but one of them sounded much louder so I had to have about a 6 or 7dB difference on the faders.
Logged
There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

Dan Crocker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2014, 08:58:56 PM »

Thanks Jason.
It sounds like I'm doing everything as you described. And, I totally get what you're saying about how loud different people sound. Some people's voices just cut through more than others. This is probably related to the frequency content of their voices.
Anyways, I'm still stumped but I suspect I'm going to find a console setting to explain what I saw. I'm still learning the M200i so I'm not that familiar with where all the controls are. You'll probably see a post from me soon which includes the word "duh..." :)
Dan
 

Dan you said you use an M-200i, right?



I set the "sensitivity" knob (red knob in picture) to wherever it needs to be so that my meter hovers around -18 (also highlighted in red). Sometimes this setting is different for different inputs. Sometimes it's different for two different people using the same mic (we have one singer I set to -13 and another to -20, same mic). I usually have my main fader somewhere around -3dB. If I need more or less main to get all my channel faders to be roughly around 0dB, I turn it up or down.

Signal level and perceived volume are very different. Just the other day had two people both talking in two different mics, had their signal levels very close to each other, but one of them sounded much louder so I had to have about a 6 or 7dB difference on the faders.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Fader as compared to main levels
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2014, 08:58:56 PM »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.033 seconds with 24 queries.