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Author Topic: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions  (Read 13666 times)

Rufus Crowder

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2014, 01:43:22 PM »

Isn't it a shame that "sound quality" is usually the last thing that gets considered when designing a sound stage?
True.  This room is in a shopping center and the chairs are in a wide fan shape where the width is almost three (3) times the depth.  It was the only way to fit in more people.  Sound?  What sound?  Oh yeah, that sounds good enough...kinda loud though...Can you move those speakers to the back wall so we can see all of the stage?  Yeah right there, perfect!  Those boxes stacked to the side of the stage need to be moved.  Sounds great to me!  (Catch my drift...)

Sometimes what we consider sounding the best is not visually appealing to the "boss".  Again, I may try what everyone is suggesting as an experiment.  If it makes a considerable difference, I will present this view for sure.  I am sure that y'all will have my back ;)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2014, 01:50:59 PM »


Sometimes what we consider sounding the best is not visually appealing to the "boss".  Again, I may try what everyone is suggesting as an experiment.  If it makes a considerable difference, I will present this view for sure.  I am sure that y'all will have my back ;)
If you could send me  [email protected]   some drawings with dimensions (doesn't have to be exact-just kinda close) of the room and possible locations to put the subs (photos are nice also) I will do a model and give some suggestions.

However most of this next week is really busy-so it may be a couple of days before I can get back with you.

Is it possible to fly the subs-location wise?  Flying them is always my first "go to" in a church/performance room.

By flying them you will get a more even coverage in the space (because the front people are further away and the rear people are still the same distance-so the front to back ratio of distance from the sub is smaller).

Flying them might also open up more options for subs (physical size wise)
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Rufus Crowder

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2014, 02:11:17 PM »

If you could send me  [email protected]   some drawings with dimensions (doesn't have to be exact-just kinda close) of the room and possible locations to put the subs (photos are nice also) I will do a model and give some suggestions.

However most of this next week is really busy-so it may be a couple of days before I can get back with you.

Is it possible to fly the subs-location wise?  Flying them is always my first "go to" in a church/performance room.

By flying them you will get a more even coverage in the space (because the front people are further away and the rear people are still the same distance-so the front to back ratio of distance from the sub is smaller).

Flying them might also open up more options for subs (physical size wise)
Great Ivan!  I will take you up on this for sure.  I believe that I can get my hands on some drawings and I will take some photos also.  I am not sure of flying the subs due to sight lines involving the projection screens.  They are left, center, and right of the stage.  I had inquired about flying subs in the same series (JBL VRX) but was talked out of it saying that the results would be less than desirable.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2014, 03:14:19 PM »

GI had inquired about flying subs in the same series (JBL VRX) but was talked out of it saying that the results would be less than desirable.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

The biggest issue with subs on the floor is simply that some people are close to them and others are far away.  The closer seats will be louder-no way around that.

In some cases this is fine (ie concerts-clubs etc), but in a situation like in a church-the goal SHOULD be to get as close to the same sound quality/level etc as possible.

However we have one local large church in which the original install the subs were flown and provided very even coverage.

But they wanted more punch/impact etc from the same number of subs.  So we did a test and put them on the floor in the middle.  They LOVED it.  and they accept the fact that the close seats are VERY bass heavy.

So much so-that in all of their satellite campuses they INSIST that the subs be put on the ground in front of the stage.  They say "That sound is part of our DNA".

They are one of those "kick drum worshiping" Churches

It is important that the end user and designer are aware of the pros and cons of flying vs on the ground.

On the ground can provide more punch and impact up close-but provides (in most cases) poor coverage from front to back and side to side.

Flown subs provide much more even coverage front to back and side to side.

Also with flown subs-it is much easier to integrate the subs with the main speakers (assuming the mains are flown) because they are physically together with them.

Sometimes it can be a bit "odd feeling" if the subs are on the ground and the mains flown-as there can be a "disconnect" in the feeling of the sound-even though it may measure just fine.  Our ears tell us different.

The lower the mains go in this case-the less "disconnect" there is.   If the mains only go down to around 100Hz or higher-then you can have a big "disconnect".  At least I do.

I do both in my designs-it depends on what is most important to the customer and I make them aware of the "price" to be paid for a particular layout.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tommy Peel

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2014, 03:33:14 PM »

There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

The biggest issue with subs on the floor is simply that some people are close to them and others are far away.  The closer seats will be louder-no way around that.

In some cases this is fine (ie concerts-clubs etc), but in a situation like in a church-the goal SHOULD be to get as close to the same sound quality/level etc as possible.

However we have one local large church in which the original install the subs were flown and provided very even coverage.

But they wanted more punch/impact etc from the same number of subs.  So we did a test and put them on the floor in the middle.  They LOVED it.  and they accept the fact that the close seats are VERY bass heavy.

So much so-that in all of their satellite campuses they INSIST that the subs be put on the ground in front of the stage.  They say "That sound is part of our DNA".

They are one of those "kick drum worshiping" Churches

It is important that the end user and designer are aware of the pros and cons of flying vs on the ground.

On the ground can provide more punch and impact up close-but provides (in most cases) poor coverage from front to back and side to side.

Flown subs provide much more even coverage front to back and side to side.

Also with flown subs-it is much easier to integrate the subs with the main speakers (assuming the mains are flown) because they are physically together with them.

Sometimes it can be a bit "odd feeling" if the subs are on the ground and the mains flown-as there can be a "disconnect" in the feeling of the sound-even though it may measure just fine.  Our ears tell us different.

The lower the mains go in this case-the less "disconnect" there is.   If the mains only go down to around 100Hz or higher-then you can have a big "disconnect".  At least I do.

I do both in my designs-it depends on what is most important to the customer and I make them aware of the "price" to be paid for a particular layout.
Just curious... Would flying a couple more subs than you would ground stack result in the same punch/impact?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2014, 04:48:24 PM »

Just curious... Would flying a couple more subs than you would ground stack result in the same punch/impact?
It really isn't so much a SPL thing.  People like to use the example of the subs on the ground as being in half space and flying them in whole space-with a 6dB difference.

HOWEVER the LISTENER is usually on the ground (not to many people listen when they are 20' off the ground-except at a Grateful dead show ;))-so the listener is in (or close enough) to half space-so the resultant SPL is the same-MAYBE.  It depends on where you measure at.  If you are measuring up close-then yes the subs on the ground will be louder-DUH you are closer to them and the increase in SPL is exaclty the reason we fly the subs.

BUT measure at the back of the coverage area and see what SPL difference there is.  In dealing with subs it is very important to measure at a distance-to help remove cabinet "issues" by being to close.  The physical size of the cabinet can throw off the measurement.  That is the reason Danley measures subs at 10M with 28V input.  A 20dB increase in input level and a 20dB reduction in SPL due to distance. 

If you measure a sub of close you will get a higher SPL number than if you measure it at a distance and "back calculate".  I feel this is where some subs get their "unusually high" SPL numbers.  It is not really a useful number-but it is correct at the distance measured.

It is my feeling that spec numbers should be useful to help figure out how loud a system can actually get.  But I need to stop ranting.

One of the things that people like about ground subs is simply the fact that they are on the ground/floor.  This transfers energy into the ground-so you get a tactile feel from the subs.  It would take more subs flown to give this same tactile feel-but then the SPL as experienced by the listener would be louder.

Basically this why butt shakers are popular-you get the feel without all the level.

So again it comes down to "it depends"

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Danley TH212 Subs - Opinions
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2014, 04:48:24 PM »


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