ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...  (Read 1982 times)

Kieran Walsh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
    • Audinate
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 08:48:53 am »

Thanks Tim... Looking through this... might be an idea to do a more detailed thread on OSI model for this forum...

This is important because when the layers, what the traffic is called and what the devices at each layer are called, and how these devices are described when you get to the store to buy them are understood well... IT jargon disappears, Network engineers become useful allies, etc.

To be totally transparent- it would be totally inappropriate to start this thread myself - it would be wrong for a manufacturer to "take ownership" of this...

If someone wanted to kick off with a subject along the lines of - "I've heard of the OSI model and different "layers" in networking"... how does this affect Audio systems?

As there are 7 layers... 7 days in a week, we could start with Layer 1- Physical, and have a talk about the most important thing- cabling, and what works and what doesn't and move on up from there.

Just an idea for a conversation starter... we can keep the replies brief, and as a consequence drag multiple experiences into the discussion?

any takers?
Logged
Senior Technical Solutions Manager, Audinate EMEA.

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13212
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 09:53:26 am »

As there are 7 layers... 7 days in a week, we could start with Layer 1- Physical, and have a talk about the most important thing- cabling, and what works and what doesn't and move on up from there.

any takers?

"Let's get physical, physical, I wanna get physical... let me hear you data talk..." with apologies to O.N. John and the Layer One Singers. ;)

Kieran, there is a sticky thread near the top of this forum that was started to help audio guys understand data networking and packet-switched protocols.  You might give it a read-through and see what needs challenged or cleaned up, and consider starting your 7 Layers Road in that thread.

So long as you don't use a forum to _promote_ your employer's products (check the FAQ page) your participation is most welcome.  Check with Mac or another moderator if you have a question.
Logged
Chewing through your wimpy dreams
They eat without a sound,
Digesting England by the pound.

Mark McFarlane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1630
  • Middle East
    • Arkose Records
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 10:06:55 am »

Kieran,

I'm the OP of this thread.  Back to my original question...

I'm running a GLD112 with Dante and an new (1Gb) airport extreme. Do you think it is reasonable to connect my MacbookPro to the AirPort Extreme by cat cable, and then connect the Dante card (@32x32) and the GLD Ethernet control to the AirPort Extreme Gb ports, or should I run Dante direct to my laptop by cable and connect the laptop wirelessly to the AirPort Extreme for GLD control functions.

There are a few other devices on the network like a DSP and Sennheiser WSM but there would be basically no traffic to these devices during a show.

Even though the airport express doesn't support QoS, it seems like there will be plenty of bandwidth in the airport express for unicast 32x32 to just wire things together without worrying about VLANs
Logged
Mark McFarlane
ARKOSERECORDS
Turn down what's too loud.

Riley Casey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 597
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 12:05:32 pm »

Or better yet, the manufacturer could take full ownership of this and issue a white paper on audio networking on their website. 

Kieran I very much appreciate your posting both here and on the Blue Room forum this extremely valuable illumination of some of the darker elements of network application as it relates to Dante implementation.  Combined with the Yamaha networking 'lite' tutorials still in progress it makes understanding this brave new world much more accessible.  I would very much like to see Audinate step up to the plate with this sort of information support as a base part of their product offering.  Audinate may feel that their customers are the audio device manufacturers that incorporate this technology into their products but I suspect that the key to seeing Dante successfully pull ahead of the pack in the audio networking market will be promulgating a widespread understanding of the merits of your product over the competition.  This sort of out reach can be that competitive edge.

...
To be totally transparent- it would be totally inappropriate to start this thread myself - it would be wrong for a manufacturer to "take ownership" of this...
...

Kieran Walsh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
    • Audinate
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 03:42:52 pm »

Or better yet, the manufacturer could take full ownership of this and issue a white paper on audio networking on their website. 

Kieran I very much appreciate your posting both here and on the Blue Room forum this extremely valuable illumination of some of the darker elements of network application as it relates to Dante implementation.  Combined with the Yamaha networking 'lite' tutorials still in progress it makes understanding this brave new world much more accessible.  I would very much like to see Audinate step up to the plate with this sort of information support as a base part of their product offering.  Audinate may feel that their customers are the audio device manufacturers that incorporate this technology into their products but I suspect that the key to seeing Dante successfully pull ahead of the pack in the audio networking market will be promulgating a widespread understanding of the merits of your product over the competition.  This sort of out reach can be that competitive edge.

Agree that it is appropriate to publish a white paper on what is "special sauce" specific... however this is very different to hijacking the whole OSI 7 layer model, IP networks etc etc etc open standardised stuff... that to be honest nobody should claim as "theirs". I'm happy of course to explain Dante specific stuff as the point of reference- this makes sense. I'm happy too to share my experience of standard IP networking - but believe it important to draw a line between what is "special sauce" and what is general knowledge.

Simply put... we are trying to help show what are general networking topics, and work with credible trainers there to provide this (IT guys... I have been softening some of them up to provide training).

Audinate are participating in an event in Amsterdam at the same time as ISE on 4th February- this includes leading equipment manufacturers- talking about their equipment. Audinate, talking about Dante and media networking, and just as important there will be a presentation from an enterprise networking training facility on how they work with people in A/V to complete projects and offer training.

It should be a very educational day (and its free) http://www.audinate.com/webmail/AVNW_Feb_2014/AVNW_Feb_2014.html#!

Logged
Senior Technical Solutions Manager, Audinate EMEA.

Kieran Walsh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
    • Audinate
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 04:08:57 pm »

Kieran,

I'm the OP of this thread.  Back to my original question...

I'm running a GLD112 with Dante and an new (1Gb) airport extreme. Do you think it is reasonable to connect my MacbookPro to the AirPort Extreme by cat cable, and then connect the Dante card (@32x32) and the GLD Ethernet control to the AirPort Extreme Gb ports, or should I run Dante direct to my laptop by cable and connect the laptop wirelessly to the AirPort Extreme for GLD control functions.

There are a few other devices on the network like a DSP and Sennheiser WSM but there would be basically no traffic to these devices during a show.

Even though the airport express doesn't support QoS, it seems like there will be plenty of bandwidth in the airport express for unicast 32x32 to just wire things together without worrying about VLANs

Indeed- back to the point...

This is a really good question... and a good opportunity to go through how I would consider this in a step by step way...

The big unknown here as far as I see it is the airport extreme, and the wired performance therein... i'm trying to find a datasheet to confirm some performance questions I have...
Assuming that the switch between the wired ports is a non-blocking, and completely "dumb" unmanaged switch then the setup you describe "could" be OK... I will keep looking for definitive info on this, and/or devise a test to try this out.

The three ports on the front of the M-Dante card are ports of a Gigabit switch...

The control port has filtering enabled to prevent multicast audio from swamping the control port (it would be advisable to check release notes and firmware update to verify this from A&H - I do know that they have written a very good advisory on some of the extensive testing that they undertake)

It is not clear to me from the quoted description at least whether you are running the M-Dante card in redundant or switched mode. I believe that in either case the control port will filter multicast traffic in the latest firmware version... again - please check with A&H release notes for confirmation - looking at their documentation firmware above 3.5.x should work fine.

SO I would suggest that you connect the control ethernet of the GLD to the control port of the M-Dante card - put the M-Dante card in switched mode, attach the airport extreme to either the "primary" or "secondary" port of the M-Dante card, with your virtual soundcard machine plugged into the other network port of the M-Dante card.

I hope that this covers the main points- please let me know how you get on



Logged
Senior Technical Solutions Manager, Audinate EMEA.

Rob Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1137
  • Boston Metro North/West
    • Lynx Audio Services
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 05:30:03 pm »

To the OP

It seems to me you are overthinking this.
I think most current routers ( with a WAP ) that have more than one network connector on the subscriber (as opposed to the internet) side have an integrated non-managed switch inside.  The Netgear box I use has an internet connector of one color and 4 subscriber gigabit network connectors of a different color. For my use with my audio gear, the internet (or outside world) connector is never used. What I use is the four connections to the built in switch and the AP.  I use it with two different mixers.
For the GLD80, I connect the primary Dante port, the console's network port and my MacBook.
For the LS9-32, there are two Dante cards and therefor 2 primary Dante ports.
The iPads connect to the console network port via the AP and the audio goes from the mixer to the MacBook via Dante and the DVS (Dante virtual sound card) for recording.

I have been using this setup with the LS9 for 2 years and the GLD since September with no real problems and no dropout issues with the iPad. The router typically sits on top of the doghouse. There sure seems to be plenty of bandwidth for these 2 uses on a single network.

The Yamaha Dante cards have a DB9 serial port. I never have needed to use it.
The A&H card has a RJ45 network port. I haven't used it either. Should I? Why? I guess I need to find a manual to read up on it?

I am considering installing a 6 or 8 port switch in each doghouse and then a single line out to the router/WAP which would give me some spare network ports to do things like connect both desks up to share inputs or have a second laptop for recording or SMAART or such. Also, then the router/WAP could easily be repositioned for optimal RF range while keeping the cabling neat and simple. This would also give me a port for the Dante control?

If I were going to hand out a dozen iPads for personal mixing, I guess I would consider separating the two networks but I only have 32 or so audio streams going to the MacBook.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Logged
rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

Mark McFarlane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1630
  • Middle East
    • Arkose Records
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 10:52:51 pm »

Indeed- back to the point...

This is a really good question... and a good opportunity to go through how I would consider this in a step by step way...

The big unknown here as far as I see it is the airport extreme, and the wired performance therein... i'm trying to find a datasheet to confirm some performance questions I have...
Assuming that the switch between the wired ports is a non-blocking, and completely "dumb" unmanaged switch then the setup you describe "could" be OK... I will keep looking for definitive info on this, and/or devise a test to try this out.

The three ports on the front of the M-Dante card are ports of a Gigabit switch...

The control port has filtering enabled to prevent multicast audio from swamping the control port (it would be advisable to check release notes and firmware update to verify this from A&H - I do know that they have written a very good advisory on some of the extensive testing that they undertake)

It is not clear to me from the quoted description at least whether you are running the M-Dante card in redundant or switched mode. I believe that in either case the control port will filter multicast traffic in the latest firmware version... again - please check with A&H release notes for confirmation - looking at their documentation firmware above 3.5.x should work fine.

SO I would suggest that you connect the control ethernet of the GLD to the control port of the M-Dante card - put the M-Dante card in switched mode, attach the airport extreme to either the "primary" or "secondary" port of the M-Dante card, with your virtual soundcard machine plugged into the other network port of the M-Dante card.

I hope that this covers the main points- please let me know how you get on


Thanks Kieran.  What you suggest, bridging the GLD control to the Dante control, then a single cable from Dante primary to the switch is how I have been running my tests. So far so good.  This system is new, I only have a few hours using it so far.

In my last post I mentioned unicast. I don't see any need for multicast with a single source and receiver of the multitrack audio stream.  Maybe I missed something.

Logged
Mark McFarlane
ARKOSERECORDS
Turn down what's too loud.

Kieran Walsh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
    • Audinate
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2014, 06:49:04 am »

To the OP

It seems to me you are overthinking this.
I think most current routers ( with a WAP ) that have more than one network connector on the subscriber (as opposed to the internet) side have an integrated non-managed switch inside. 

Rob,

I love this...

As a wider question - I would really like to hear what switches people are actually using? Naturally I have an idea of how many Dante-devices are "out there" and I also have a good idea of how many support cases get to us. Naturally picking up queries about switches from customers is going to give me a bleak view of the world... I don't call the grocery store to congratulate them on the fine quality of the groceries I bought after all (I kinda expect it).

It is true that there are integrated switches in most multiport home accesspoint/residential gateway devices... And to be fair some are going to be fine. I have a no-brand 5-port gigabit switch that I carry in my flight bag for doing demos, which cost me $15. Without a detailed datasheet to confirm that the switch has the following

1. Non-blocking backplane architecture
2. Does not have any kind of feature that may interrupt continual tx and rx (like Energy Efficient Ethernet for example)

Then you are taking a risk.

How much of a risk... well in my case $15 and $15 that paid off...

How did I test this?

I put the switch between 2 known good switches and then hammered traffic through the system. Typically my test involves making as much multicast noise as possible (some switches will handle unicast fine, but do bad things to multicast - so attacking them with what they don't like first is good)

I probably still wouldn't do a show with this box... if only for the reason that I wouldn't want to explain why I was using such a cheap device - there is an old saying "Nobody got fired for buying IBM" ... you could probably put Cisco or HP in this phrase when it comes to networking.

Its quite obvious that whatever works for you is the refreshing answer here... it would be good to share what works because if I divide the number of network questions by the number of devices... I get a really tiny number. The number isn't zero however (it has a lot of decimal places). I have had, and heard of success using Cisco, HP, Juniper, Brocade, Zyxel, Linksys, Netgear TP link etc equipment- obviously models vary, but getting an idea of the ecosystem would be good - (who knows... maybe fabulous prizes could be won!)
Logged
Senior Technical Solutions Manager, Audinate EMEA.

Kieran Walsh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 88
    • Audinate
Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2014, 06:53:47 am »



In my last post I mentioned unicast. I don't see any need for multicast with a single source and receiver of the multitrack audio stream.  Maybe I missed something.

If you are using unicast only... life is easier - Dante still uses a small amount of multicast to do the clocking of course... but this is not significant in most circumstances.

My only reason for suggesting a "multicast considered" approach is a Hope for sunshine- Prepare for rain attitude.

If for whatever reason at some point you need to "go multicast" in a hurry... then if you take the steps here, you can just click the button, and carry on doing something more important (in my opinion)

Obviously if it actually cost cash to do this... then I wouldn't be quite so glib about it...

Logged
Senior Technical Solutions Manager, Audinate EMEA.
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.126 seconds with 23 queries.