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Author Topic: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...  (Read 10885 times)

Mark McFarlane

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Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« on: December 26, 2013, 10:59:26 AM »

I've upgraded my A rigs with a GLD112 and need to rethink my network setup.

At FOH I will have:
wireless: iPad
wired and/or wireless: Mac Book Pro or Air, wired ethernet on Lightning
wired: GLD Dante
wired: GLD control
wired: Sennheiser wireless mic(s)
wired: dsnake, direct to stage
USB: Tripplite Smaart500
USB: Peavey laptop audio interface (may use Dante instead)
USB: Smaart interface (or may use GLD inputs through Dante)

On stage I'll have
wired: Sabine Nav 4802 DSP
wired: dsnake, direct to FOH
wireless: iPods and iPhones for monitor control...

I'll never be using more than 32 channels on the GLD, at least in the near future. I just purchased a  Dlink DIR-815 N+ (recommended by A&H for iLive) but it only has 100MB ports, which should be OK for Dante at 32*32 except it is a router, not a switch.

Network Options at FOH:
1) Laptop hardwired to GB combo WAP/switch/router with Dante and GLD Editor, WSM etc running over the wire
2) Laptop hardwired to GB switch with Dante and GLD Editor, WSM etc running over the wire, DLink WAP connected to the switch
3) Laptop wired direct to Dante, no switch. WAP connected to GLD control, Sennheiser,... and use Laptop wireless connection for these devices.  Requires me to get wired and wireless working on my laptop, which I have read is possible, but haven't succeeded in doing yet.

I'm thinking of trying an Airport Express at the stage to link the Sabine Nav DSP into the wireless network. I've dome thin=s in the past brining computers into my wireless network.

Option (3) should work with my current gear, if I can get it configured correctly.  Any other options? Is there such a thing as a WAP with a GB switch, not router?

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Mark McFarlane

Thomas Dameron

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2013, 04:13:37 PM »

I would recommend separating the control stuff from the Dante stream.  There is a good amount of data on the Dante network and it takes a good amount of IT wizardry to filter that part of the network and keep it from clogging the wireless by trying to wirelessly transmit the Dante stream.

So D-snake connects like normal on it's own cat5.
Dante connects to the Mac directly.  Add a switch if you need more devices, but keep it separate from your control network.
If musicians on stage need to connect to the console I would strongly recommend running cat5 to stage and adding a local access point for them.  It will be able to connect to the FOH AP during sound check but once the audience fills in you'll lose a lot of reliability.  I would connect your D-Link to the console at FOH.  Your Mac and iPad's can connect to that.  If you're worried about a wired connection to the Mac you can add a Usb-Ethernet adapter.  It isn't gigabit capable, but that's fine for control.  Then run one of the router outputs from the D-Link to stage into a switch that connects to the Sabine and local access point or configure another D-link or similar to not assign DHCP.

It sounds like a lot of bits and pieces at first, but the network stuff is relatively cheap, and most of it can either live in the console doghouse or racked up with the AR racks on stage, so it shouldn't add to setup time once you bundle the cat5 cables together.

Hope that helps,
thomas d.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2013, 04:29:29 PM »

I would recommend separating the control stuff from the Dante stream.  There is a good amount of data on the Dante network and it takes a good amount of IT wizardry to filter that part of the network and keep it from clogging the wireless by trying to wirelessly transmit the Dante stream.

AFAIK Dante does not support wireless transmission of the audio stream. If you want to put any other device on the network it is going to mean there must be a switch. If you use a GB switch you can either get as many as 512x512 channels, or have bandwidth available for other network traffic. It is not hard to set up a VLAN for Dante that has the VOIP QoS priorities set for Dante timing to have the highest priority, and the audio stream the 2nd highest. You can then set up another VLAN for your other traffic. Unless you are streaming HD video on the other VLAN there should be plenty of bandwidth available. A 128x128 Dante network should use about 25% of the 1GB bandwidth.

I have run a Dante network of about 100x100 with a VLAN for file transfers of HD video content, not streaming, so not time critical, as well as another VLAN for misc data. This was on 1GB managed switches.

Mac
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 06:50:35 AM »

AFAIK Dante does not support wireless transmission of the audio stream. If you want to put any other device on the network it is going to mean there must be a switch. If you use a GB switch you can either get as many as 512x512 channels, or have bandwidth available for other network traffic. It is not hard to set up a VLAN for Dante that has the VOIP QoS priorities set for Dante timing to have the highest priority, and the audio stream the 2nd highest. You can then set up another VLAN for your other traffic. Unless you are streaming HD video on the other VLAN there should be plenty of bandwidth available. A 128x128 Dante network should use about 25% of the 1GB bandwidth.

I have run a Dante network of about 100x100 with a VLAN for file transfers of HD video content, not streaming, so not time critical, as well as another VLAN for misc data. This was on 1GB managed switches.

Mac

Hi Mac,

Have come across from the other forum as discussed. We have been having some interesting discussions about detailed Dante networking on some other forums, and I am happy to take questions here as well.

The first thing to remember about networking is that it is very difficult to be 100% wrong... but similarly it is impossible to be "right" in everyones opinion... so thats the same as Audio engineering at least ;)

Using VLANs to separate traffic is a valid activity - it breaks up what we call broadcast domains in networking... this may or may not matter- and largely depends upon the number of devices in the network, and whether their traffic profile "plays nice".

I like the analogy of different bars when talking about broadcast domains (and also about where to go eat on a night out).

Being a Brit, we tend to have Bars/pubs that are generally a single room (for the purposes of this analogy, lets assume this to be true). This room can be either very large, or quite small of course.

As a sound engineer in a former life- I have a deep dislike of bars that have any sort of music in them. I tend to go for small pubs, no music, good food and polite conversation.... hang on a minute this is supposed to be about networking... not a dating site!

OK I'll cut to the chase- think of the ideal pub described as a network with a small number of well behaved devices in it... more devices can be added to that network, and the "bar room" can get more full... but in general people tend to keep their voices down, there is no shouting, and as a result things are fairly relaxed.

A network broadcast domain is the area in a network which can receive a layer 2 broadcast message. This is like being in a bar room, and someone in the corner starts shouting. Unfortunately everyone can hear it... and most people aren't interested in it, but nevertheless it disturbs every other conversation.

Contrast this with a Nightclub... loud music, lots of people, and you have to shout to be heard. Networking is about communication. Communication in a nightclub is more energy consuming - by contrast its a noisy broadcast domain.

Using VLANs (or IP subnets at layer 3) effectively allows one to leave the nightclub and enter the quiet bar.

In order to communicate between VLANs and IP subnets, a device called a router is used. This can forward layer 3 IP packets between broadcast domains (it does not allow broadcast messages to pass!)

Think of this like a telephone line between the nightclub and the bar - communication is possible between the two broadcast domains, but the nightclub doesn't make the pub any noisier as a result.

Of course there is a down side to this!

More work has to be undertaken in order to ensure communication between broadcast domains is possible (setting up router etc.)

HOWEVER

In an A/V system a VLAN might be just the thing you are after... just because telephones exist, their use is not mandatory.

It is quite possible that you don't want any communication between the VLANs at all... so there is no point in buying a router... and if you don't have one... then you don't need to configure it.

Naturally the drawback is like a gig with uncompromising security... if you don't have your laminate and security is tight... there is no getting around it - networks are notoriously unimaginative in this respect ;)
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 07:41:31 AM »

Thanks Kieran for your response.  FYI, you may have underestimated the knowledge and experience of this board, you don't need to 'dumb it down' quite so far.
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Mark McFarlane

Kieran Walsh

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 08:15:22 AM »

Thanks Kieran for your response.  FYI, you may have underestimated the knowledge and experience of this board, you don't need to 'dumb it down' quite so far.

Thanks Mark, and apologies if you thought my obvious pathetic attempts at humour were dumbing something down. The confusion between layers of the OSI model and what the differences between Collision, and broadcast domains are common errors made by a lot of people even in enterprise networking. A good grasp of the basics is never a bad thing in my opinion.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 01:54:55 PM »

Hi Mac,

Have come across from the other forum as discussed. We have been having some interesting discussions about detailed Dante networking on some other forums, and I am happy to take questions here as well.

To put this in context, here is a link to the thread on the Blue Room forum, and another one like it, that prompted me to invite Kieran here.

There is a lot to learn for those of us not exposed on a daily basis to the intricacies of networking.

Mac
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Andrew Hastings

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 06:44:18 PM »

To put this in context, here is a link to the thread on the Blue Room forum, and another one like it, that prompted me to invite Kieran here.

There is a lot to learn for those of us not exposed on a daily basis to the intricacies of networking.

Mac

Thanks Mac

For starting the discussion on the other Forum great information for the novice on networking
learned a lot from it.

Andrew
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 08:29:47 PM »

Thanks to Mac for putting this in context.

I changed to a briefer reply style, because as you can see from the other pists... some excellent points were made, which had I answered differently, could have been addressed (in my opinion) properly.

Personally I hated those textbooks (often in Mathematics) that felt somehow that a few pages were missing between the worked example and the exercise! I dont want to feel I am ever doing that. Also, when lecturing to small groups - eye contact and general observation of the audience give good clues as to what is going in... This medium doesnt allow that, so applying the Gordon theory when analysing ones own writing is essential.

My professor of educational theory always said "if you can't explain something at least four different ways - you don't know it". It is my failing if you do not understand what I am saying - not yours for failing to understand it.

so please - ask a question- if you dont get the answer, or like the phrasing of the answer- re-pose or rephrase the question.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 09:40:00 PM »


My professor of educational theory always said "if you can't explain something at least four different ways - you don't know it". It is my failing if you do not understand what I am saying - not yours for failing to understand it.

so please - ask a question- if you dont get the answer, or like the phrasing of the answer- re-pose or rephrase the question.

One employee we hired was trained from scratch.  Never sang is a chorus or played in the band at school; no church music.  Minimal mathematics background.  He'd been involved in a bit of theater in high school, but that was it.  We had a lot of conversations while traveling to/from gigs - how to listen for different textures as well as pitch,  how to deal with performers and clients - but when it got technical he'd let me go on and on.  When finally I'd stop he'd ask 'now can you translate that into hillbilly?'  I'd have to find a different way of explaining, perhaps several times.  Your pedagogue was correct, because this consistently tested my *actual* knowledge and my ability to communicate that to someone in a way that was correct, meaningful and useful.  Some days that continues to be a pretty tall order...  :o

Thanks for participating here, your contributions are appreciated.
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Re: Wired and Wireless networking options for GLD, Dante, WSM, ...
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 09:40:00 PM »


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