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Author Topic: VRX Line Array  (Read 7752 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2014, 08:19:04 am »


B) This isn't rocket surgery and there is a good chance that this thing WILL throw more lead vocal to the back of the room which I think is the intent of it.  Whether it combs your hair in the process might be irrelevant.
I would argue that it is easier to "throw the vocals" with a system that has as little interference as possible.

Because with vocals it is the UNDERSTANDING that makes them clear.  So to get them clearer means less interference.

Especially at long distances.  The systems that have less interference are much clearer.

Now if you are looking for that "ice pick in the forehead" type sound-that is a different story.

So it all depends on what the "goal" is.
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Ivan Beaver
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drew gandy

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2014, 04:51:30 pm »

I would argue that it is easier to "throw the vocals" with a system that has as little interference as possible.

Because with vocals it is the UNDERSTANDING that makes them clear.  So to get them clearer means less interference.

I'm being a bit cynical but... Who goes to a show to hear what the performers say between songs?  The way a vocal sits in a mix is different than what it needs for good intelligibility.  I agree with what you're saying but I see this thing as a "combat audio" type of device.  I mean... sometimes even Ivan stacks up SH46s to get more level (and height) for a rock show. :)

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Now if you are looking for that "ice pick in the forehead" type sound...

And who isn't?!?   ;) 
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John Chiara

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2014, 08:28:52 pm »

I am putting a system in a club this month. 4 Danley TH215's and 2 Comm SLS960's.
I have been here dozens of times and this will kick butt. The last "experienced" guy I saw in the room doing a Mötley Crüe tribute had 4 QSC KW 153's over 2 KW 181's.
Go figure...
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2014, 05:05:47 am »

I am putting a system in a club this month. 4 Danley TH215's and 2 Comm SLS960's.
I have been here dozens of times and this will kick butt. The last "experienced" guy I saw in the room doing a Mötley Crüe tribute had 4 QSC KW 153's over 2 KW 181's.
Go figure...

That's nice... It this in the wrong topic?
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Brad Weber

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2014, 09:16:38 am »

I think my post was misunderstood and I'm not sure how to fix it. 

I'll try this and hope I don't make it worse. 

Brad, I know you've heard a VRX or 2 before.  I don't disagree with your reply but was aiming for something between:

A) VRX sound so bad to begin with that maybe this wouldn't really mess it up ;D

and
B) This isn't rocket surgery and there is a good chance that this thing WILL throw more lead vocal to the back of the room which I think is the intent of it.  Whether it combs your hair in the process might be irrelevant.  I see so many goofy ways of "doing sound" even from experienced sound dudes that this just seems like more of the same.  Further, until someone uses this arrangement (and takes valid measurements) we don't know for sure if it will be any worse than other "correct" solutions.  Every speaker has flaws (read, engineering compromises).

My point was really simply that this seemed to be a product not developed to fix a common problem or provide a solution for a common application but rather a product that does something nobody really seemed to be asking for and that goes against how the product was intended to be used.
 
The eBay ad states:
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This speaker bracket enables you to attach six 932 speakers together in a useful 6-hang speaker array. Normally you can only use a maximum of four speakers due to the fixed 15 degree splay angle of the 932. With the StraightArray® speaker bracket, you can hang six of your VRX932s in one line array more like a JBL Vertec series line array for better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members.

The VRX-AF Array Frame is apparently actually rated for up to five VRX932 in a hang, the four box limit is for ground stacked.  How does adding a 'straightening bracket' increase those numbers and are there any physical, structural or safety implications related to supporting a larger number of speakers from an Array Frame?
 
Is a straight array of VRX boxes actually a "useful array" and how was that determined?  Given that JBL did not intend the VRX932 for such use, do you really get "better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members."?  Does simply using a 'straightening bracket' truly make a VRX932 array like a Vertec array?
 
Basically, I see a bunch of claims, some of which seem questionable and none of which seem to have any support.  It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has actually tried these.
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James A. Griffin

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 09:22:36 am »

A) VRX sound so bad to begin with that maybe this wouldn't really mess it up ;D

Compared to what?   The VRX is made for a specific application at a specific price point.     4 per side hanging from trusses or lifts can deliver a pretty decent show.    Lots of folks - many on PSW - have done it and are doing it every day.
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drew gandy

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2014, 12:59:25 am »

Brad, I think we're mostly on the same page.  And I apologize if I've come across argumentative at all in my posts the past few days (maybe I'm not getting enough fresh air?).


My point was really simply that this seemed to be a product not developed to fix a common problem or provide a solution for a common application but rather a product that does something nobody really seemed to be asking for and that goes against how the product was intended to be used.

Well,  I can see how a sound company who has VRX in stock as their "flagship" speaker system might be tempted to buy some of these for those handful of gigs where they need a little more level at the far seats.  Instead of renting a better solution for the gig they are inclined to "invest" in something that can let them use the system they already have.  I don't know that it's a solution that nobody asked for.  Check out TJ's comments earlier in this thread.  I'm familiar with looking at gigs that are on the edge of your capabilities and calling in a "bigger rig" might mean no profit or maybe creating other issues.  All that to say I can certainly imagine some VRX folks who will see this and go "wow, that might be just what I need!"

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Is a straight array of VRX boxes actually a "useful array" and how was that determined?  Given that JBL did not intend the VRX932 for such use, do you really get "better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members."?  Does simply using a 'straightening bracket' truly make a VRX932 array like a Vertec array?

These are the questions that I don't think we can answer without actually measuring the setup.  That's really the point I was trying to make.  I'm not willing to call it a dud until I've heard it and measured it.  And since JBL has not published much in the way of polars or other data for the VRX to gauge the control group, I can see how the guys making the "straightening brackets" might not have an easy way of showing that their invention doesn't disrupt "the delicate balance" of the original design. 

As far as allowing you to hang more boxes [safely] than the JBL specs state, I.... no idea... how... why would... can this be.... please don't.  The safety issue is the biggest issue here.  But perhaps they've had a mechanical engineer sign off on them?   

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It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has actually tried these.

I agree.  But this is not an invitation to ignore the potential safety issues!!!

Quote from: James A. Griffin
Compared to what?   The VRX is made for a specific application at a specific price point.     4 per side hanging from trusses or lifts can deliver a pretty decent show.    Lots of folks - many on PSW - have done it and are doing it every day.

Exactly; compared to what!?!  :D I don't know that VRX with this array adaptor would be significantly worse than any other comparably priced solution for live music.   Tim, how much would it cost to rent a "better" solution from your JBL inventory?  Would a nice line of 4886 be loud enough to compete with 5 or 6 boxes of VRX? 

btw, I put in the grinning emoticon because I meant that line about VRX sounding bad mostly as a joke.  JBL did a few things quite well with the line but I have to say that VRX is not my first choice for live music.  It does have it's issues (engineering compromises).  For instance, I think it tends to sound bright and a bit brash straight out of the box.  Those who use them on a routine basis obviously figure out ways of taming it.  (I use 932s at least a dozen times a year moistly for talking head stuff and so I'm not sure I count.) 
 
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2014, 07:30:41 am »


Well,  I can see how a sound company who has VRX in stock as their "flagship" speaker system might be tempted to buy some of these for those handful of gigs where they need a little more level at the far seats.  Instead of renting a better solution for the gig they are inclined to "invest" in something that can let them use the system they already have.  I don't know that it's a solution that nobody asked for.  Check out TJ's comments earlier in this thread.  I'm familiar with looking at gigs that are on the edge of your capabilities and calling in a "bigger rig" might mean no profit or maybe creating other issues.  All that to say I can certainly imagine some VRX folks who will see this and go "wow, that might be just what I need!"
Yep.  It costs a lot less to use your own gear than to rent something else, and it's a lot cheaper to buy another box or two than a complete larger system - hence the temptation for products like this.

Half of the posts on this forum are about folks trying to do things cheaper - an understandable desire considering the incredible cost of capital in this business - particularly the lounge.  Unfortunately the low hanging fruit has been eaten long ago, and pretty much every sound company looks the same - lots of gear, lots of infrastructure, etc. - because that's what it takes to do the job.  This product, safety aside, purports to turn VRX into what every VRX owner wished they had - a "real line array".  If it worked (and was safe), it would be more popular than Viagra on this forum.


Exactly; compared to what!?!  :D I don't know that VRX with this array adaptor would be significantly worse than any other comparably priced solution for live music.   Tim, how much would it cost to rent a "better" solution from your JBL inventory?  Would a nice line of 4886 be loud enough to compete with 5 or 6 boxes of VRX? 
I upgraded from EAW JFL210s to Vertec 4886/4883.  On demo day, we had my EAWs, VRX, and 4886/4883 side by side.  The performance difference between systems is not small.  1 for 1, 4886 has significantly more output and much better pattern consistency than VRX.  If you're comparing line length, it takes 1.5 4886 to be the same height as 1 VRX, so a 5 box VRX hang would be about the same length as 8 4886.  I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that 8 4886 would have SIGNIFICANTLY more capability than a McGuyvered VRX rig.  :) 

The purchase or rental cost of a 4886 system would be similarly SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than a VRX system.
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drew gandy

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2014, 02:40:22 pm »

If it worked (and was safe), it would be more popular than Viagra on this forum.

Is Viagra popular on this forum?  (I wasn't aware there was a problem among sound people.;) 


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I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that 8 4886 would have SIGNIFICANTLY more capability than a McGuyvered VRX rig.  :) 

The purchase or rental cost of a 4886 system would be similarly SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than a VRX system.

Thanks TJ for the comments.   I've never used 4886 and just threw it out because I knew it was the small box in the Vertec line.  Looking at the specs now I see that the 4886 is a MUCH smaller box and I have a hard time thinking that it can keep up with VRX932 at the low end of the spectrum (2 6-1/2" drivers vs 1-12")  Of course, once you stack a bunch up the low end adds and the highs become the "problem".  I am also curious about the pattern consistency you mentioned.  I've never noticed a problem between VRX boxes in the vertical (it's harder to notice unless you turn the boxes sideways) but have noticed that the horizontal is not completely even (as Art alluded to).  The 4886 is specified as 110 degrees vs 100 for the VRX.  Any additional comments about the pattern? 
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: VRX Line Array
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2014, 03:32:49 pm »

Thanks TJ for the comments.   I've never used 4886 and just threw it out because I knew it was the small box in the Vertec line.  Looking at the specs now I see that the 4886 is a MUCH smaller box and I have a hard time thinking that it can keep up with VRX932 at the low end of the spectrum (2 6-1/2" drivers vs 1-12")  Of course, once you stack a bunch up the low end adds and the highs become the "problem".  I am also curious about the pattern consistency you mentioned.  I've never noticed a problem between VRX boxes in the vertical (it's harder to notice unless you turn the boxes sideways) but have noticed that the horizontal is not completely even (as Art alluded to).  The 4886 is specified as 110 degrees vs 100 for the VRX.  Any additional comments about the pattern?
4886 has significantly better pattern consistency than VRX in the horizontal plane.  JBL released V5 presets for VRX that I'm told help a lot with that.

I am not sure off the top of my head about LF comparison between 4886 and VRX, but I am pretty confident they are comparable.  Considering that normally you deploy the 4883 sub modules with 4886, it is a non-issue.  That being said, 4886 has no trouble down to 80Hz, which may be where your subs start, so the system components you would choose are application dependent.  4886/4883 exceeds VRX in every way, including price.  :)
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