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Author Topic: Need "Free Energy" help !  (Read 14805 times)

Art Welter

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Need "Free Energy" help !
« on: November 05, 2013, 03:54:19 PM »

I sold my sailboat without it's solar panels and wind generator.

I use electric heat, so the contribution of up to 125 watts from solar during the day and up to 250 watts day round from the wind generator could save $5-$10 per month in heating cost.
Problem is the Air Breeze Marine generator is designed for stand-alone battery charging, and requires a minimum of 10.5 volts for it's controller to start working, otherwise the resistive load appears like an "off" switch and  "puts on the brakes", no spin, no juice.

So, without a battery, it only works when the solar panels are getting enough sun to hit 10.5 volts while loaded with a 2 ohm resistive heater,  only 8 hours a day or less this time of year, and it stops every time a cloud covers the solar panels.

I checked with Primus Windpower, who took over distribution of the generator, they said I was on my own for any solution, since I'm not using the unit as designed.

Using batteries is not an option, as when the wind dies at night the load would drain the battery, and the wind generator would not start up with a dead battery, and the battery would probably wear out from deep cycling before the cost would be recovered, even if a low voltage cut off (adding to the expense) was used. 

I tried using a small DC power supply to provide the required voltage to turn on the generator, but the load resistor dropped the voltage from 30 down to around 7 volts, too low to turn the generator on.

Any ideas how to solve the dilemma, like a low cost low output (50 milliamps would be plenty) charger that can maintain around 14 volts DC in to a very low resistance of 1-2 ohms, and won't burn out if voltage rises to 18 VDC?

Any (cheap) suggestions will be appreciated!

Thanks,
Art
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 04:34:38 PM »

I sold my sailboat without it's solar panels and wind generator.

I use electric heat, so the contribution of up to 125 watts from solar during the day and up to 250 watts day round from the wind generator could save $5-$10 per month in heating cost.
Problem is the Air Breeze Marine generator is designed for stand-alone battery charging, and requires a minimum of 10.5 volts for it's controller to start working, otherwise the resistive load appears like an "off" switch and  "puts on the brakes", no spin, no juice.

So, without a battery, it only works when the solar panels are getting enough sun to hit 10.5 volts while loaded with a 2 ohm resistive heater,  only 8 hours a day or less this time of year, and it stops every time a cloud covers the solar panels.

I checked with Primus Windpower, who took over distribution of the generator, they said I was on my own for any solution, since I'm not using the unit as designed.

Using batteries is not an option, as when the wind dies at night the load would drain the battery, and the wind generator would not start up with a dead battery, and the battery would probably wear out from deep cycling before the cost would be recovered, even if a low voltage cut off (adding to the expense) was used. 

I tried using a small DC power supply to provide the required voltage to turn on the generator, but the load resistor dropped the voltage from 30 down to around 7 volts, too low to turn the generator on.

Any ideas how to solve the dilemma, like a low cost low output (50 milliamps would be plenty) charger that can maintain around 14 volts DC in to a very low resistance of 1-2 ohms, and won't burn out if voltage rises to 18 VDC?

Any (cheap) suggestions will be appreciated!

Thanks,
Art
OK last first... 14 volts PS into 1-2 ohms is 7A-14A not 50 mA.
=====
It sounds like your smart regulator/battery charger is too smart to be helpful. The simplest is to grab the raw output from the alternator (AC) and dump that directly into your 2 ohm load... This will suck whatever power the wind turbine is making into the heater.

This AC voltage may not coexist with the solar panel DC output. Power rectifiers could convert the alternator AC into DC so they could be summed together and not drive into each other (diodes in series with both). These diodes will waste a little power, but that waste heat will go into your room too so no loss really. Simplest approach is separate heat coils, but 1-2 ohm seems unusual.

The cheap plug in room heaters are more like tens of ohms.

JR

PS: I have done some messing around with microprocessor control of heating, You can use simple diodes to measure room temperature by the voltage drop across them. With a triac  you could let a microprocessor turn your green heater on and off...


   
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Mike Christy

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 05:57:12 PM »

Hi Art,

Can you get into the circuit board? My thoughts are if you can find and figure out the circuit ( maybe its just a zener diode and divider network ) that is providing the micro with the OK to go signal at 10.5V, you could isolate that from the main + output, and apply your own 10.5VDC - even with a wallwart.

Ye ole reverse engineering...

Mike
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Art Welter

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 06:24:54 PM »

OK last first... 14 volts PS into 1-2 ohms is 7A-14A not 50 mA.
=====
 The simplest is to grab the raw output from the alternator (AC) and dump that directly into your 2 ohm load... This will suck whatever power the wind turbine is making into the heater.
JR, Mike,

I was thinking there might be a type of PSU that could put pulsed DC in that would not require much average amperage. But pulsed DC might not fool the control circuit in to thinking a "real" 10.5 V was present.

I don't want to modify the Air Breeze, as the "brain" keeps it from over-running in high winds.
To apply DC directly would require mounting a battery inside the unit, a wall wart would get hopelessly tangled, as you can watch the wind rotate through 360 degrees, sometimes in a manner of minutes.
At any rate, it is up 21 feet in the air, and was not too easy to erect even with a helper- I remember why I only set it up once on my boat...

I do have a RS Micronta 12V 8 amp power supply (13.8 v actual), and a 10 amp (semi-smart) battery charger. Both are heavy transformer based units.
Couldn't find any schematics for the Micronta, but it does not say "regulated" as some of the units do. Does have a circuit breaker in back.

The Micronta lives in a very convenient place for hook up, and is normally on 24/7 already (shop stereo) do you think it would be safe combined with the variable output (0-17 volts) of the panels and generator ?

P.S.- tried the 10 amp battery charger, it was able to deliver 9.8 volts in to the 2 ohm load, looks like a  charger with 50 amp start feature might do the trick.

Art
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 08:38:20 PM by Art Welter »
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Tom Bourke

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 11:38:20 PM »

JR, Mike,

I was thinking there might be a type of PSU that could put pulsed DC in that would not require much average amperage. But pulsed DC might not fool the control circuit in to thinking a "real" 10.5 V was present.

I don't want to modify the Air Breeze, as the "brain" keeps it from over-running in high winds.
To apply DC directly would require mounting a battery inside the unit, a wall wart would get hopelessly tangled, as you can watch the wind rotate through 360 degrees, sometimes in a manner of minutes.
At any rate, it is up 21 feet in the air, and was not too easy to erect even with a helper- I remember why I only set it up once on my boat...

I do have a RS Micronta 12V 8 amp power supply (13.8 v actual), and a 10 amp (semi-smart) battery charger. Both are heavy transformer based units.
Couldn't find any schematics for the Micronta, but it does not say "regulated" as some of the units do. Does have a circuit breaker in back.

The Micronta lives in a very convenient place for hook up, and is normally on 24/7 already (shop stereo) do you think it would be safe combined with the variable output (0-17 volts) of the panels and generator ?

P.S.- tried the 10 amp battery charger, it was able to deliver 9.8 volts in to the 2 ohm load, looks like a  charger with 50 amp start feature might do the trick.

Art
I think having to use such a powerful supply just to keep it active will cost you more in electrical use than your saving.  The charger would be driving the heater 24/7 using full draw from the outlet.  You would be much better off replacing some other electrical usage with your wind or solar unit.  One candidate is your stereo  another is lighting.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 12:39:49 AM »

I agree with Tom. What you're finding is the reason solar panels or wind just aren't as popular as many people think. The solutions for realistic savings quite often cost more than the process they replace.

In all honesty you could probably benefit by using the wind and solar power to charge a battery bank, which could then feed an inverter.

I also don't know where you live Art, but people here in the northeast stay far away from electric heat as much as possible. It's just too damned expensive. If it were me I would replace the electric heating elements with a forced hot water system and install a small 100,000 BTU gas or oil fired boiler. You could even use a tankless boiler mounted water heater and that alone may recover the cost you hope to recover with by using the wind and solar solution you have.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 01:01:07 AM »

Art is in New Mexico.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 01:08:26 AM »

I would be apprehensive about second guessing how to fool the turbine controller into working.

If over revving, with a load attached is a real concern, maybe add some more load on a windy night.

I am all in favor of green science fair projects, I do some myself.

@Bob re: electric heat up north, I rented a condo outside Hartford with electric hot water and it was nicer than the typical oil burner, but indeed resistance heat is more expensive. Luckily for me that was in the '80s not now.   

Living in the deep south I understand resistance heat... About a year ago I replaced my big in wall air conditioner with a combo conditioner/heat pump, so now I'm making heat with roughly 1/3 the electricity. Try that up in MA :-) Bad news is they are building a coal electric plant near me, and my electricity rate has already gone up 15% to cover cost over runs, and it isn't even making electricity yet. Yup, clean coal... what could go wrong?

JR
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John Fruits

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 06:00:46 AM »

Might I suggest another forum which might be helpful?
countryplans.com
This website is about affordable plans for simple, owner built homes, with lots of focus on pay as you go, no mortgage living.  The forums have some great people who know what they are talking about.  There is quite a bit about alternate energy and living off grid.  The forums are very active and lots of tinkerers there. 
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Art Welter

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Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 10:16:52 AM »

Might I suggest another forum which might be helpful?
countryplans.com
That site has lots of useful information, but what I am trying to accomplish is not normal for them- any solar wind generator system would normally be used in conjunction with batteries, which for my on grid use are not warranted or desirable.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Need "Free Energy" help !
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 10:16:52 AM »


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