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[sam saponaro]

In about three weeks my band has a large gig to play.There will be approx 2500 people total,but not all infront of the band like a concert.It is in like a recessed center court at a large camp area.It is mostly surrounded by buildings with an area in back of the band with pools and watersildes for kids.The stage is centered but angled off to the side so there is approx 50% in front of you and 35% off to the side of stage left and the rest of the people(kids in the pool area),which is not so important to cover.
To start I DO NOT have enough PA for this.But getting the band to rent is like pulling teeth and otherwise would have to come out of my own pocket so I gotta get it done myself.
Luckily the surrounding buildings do reflect and contain the sound which helps but its still allot to cover with the small PA.
Since setting my system tri-amped I run in clubs 1X EAW 15+horn per side and 1X TL505 18" sub per side in small clubs 2x TL505 a side in med clubs.
Crown CE1000 per side on top(CH1 mid/bass CH2 Horns) and Crown CE2000 per side on subs(bridge).
Well unfortunatly one pair of my old EV subs is blown up at the moment(so till I can either recone or upgrade)I have loaded the second set with some Carvin 18s I had which are not tuned so nicely with this box.I also have a set of OLD Yamaha 3115 cabs that have the woofers replaced with JBL E130/2225 hybrids.
Being a mix and match how should I set this scabby setup up??
My thought was to
A)Set the EAW and Tuned bottoms on stage right pointed out front and place the soundman on that side 50-60ft back and set the crossover for those drivers.And the other Yamaha cabs and untuned bottoms on stage left angled sideway-ish toward the people off to the side.
B)Set the EAWs and Tuned bottoms one stack on each side angled inward toward center with the soundman center 50-60ft back and a stack of Yamaha/untuned bottom each side but angled severly outward just for extra coverage.
But how would I set the crossover?
We did this last year with one top and two bottoms a side(bi-amped system subs/tops) and I left with a blown horn and 1 dead sub and had a pretty big lack of coverage.

[Paul G. OBrien]

But how would I set the crossover?

This isn't ideal obviously but it sounds like you're gonna be making do with what you have which is more than you had last time so hopefully it'll work out better. The big things are to make sure each stack has it's own unique processing taylored to whatever it takes to prevent it from blowing up mid gig. Crossover between subs and mains is the easy part and won't be ay different then what you use elsewhere, but you will probably need a different lowcut for each of the different subs and limiters to try to keep power levels to the drivers within long term ratings

[sam saponaro]

As far as the horns I know the EAWs have N482 1 3/4" Coil 90W drivers that can go fairly low for horns(EAW crosses them 900Hz in the FRs) ,but the Yamahas have 1 1/2"coil 40W drivers that I have no clue about. I have no idea what the cutoff is.
Thing is I only have one good crossover Dbx 223XL and an OLD Furman 12Db slope crossover with no phase swapping,that I keep for spare.So one side would have a 24Db slope the other 12Db.
As far as power handling my normal speakers actually take less wattage than the oddball sets I'll be putting which is why I figured put the soundman on that side.

[Paul G. OBrien]

Sam do yourself a favor and go get a Behringer DCX2496.. this is an incredibly effective piece of equipment that will put you well ahead of where you are now.

[Tim Perry]

Sam, with the situation you describe I think it may be best simply forget about trying to cover 1,000+ people and simply cover the dance floor same as any other gig.

When combining mismatched systems what really works quite well is a dual PA.  Put the vocals in the smaller one and the instruments in the larger one w/subs.

Focus both systems on the dance floor area and let the rest of what happens happen.

I have an upcoming show where my client told me: "it will be easy do do with your smaller rig, why we did it last year with ours bar rig and only blew up one speaker!"

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Sam, with the situation you describe I think it may be best simply forget about trying to cover 1,000+ people and simply cover the dance floor same as any other gig.

When combining mismatched systems what really works quite well is a dual PA.  Put the vocals in the smaller one and the instruments in the larger one w/subs.

Focus both systems on the dance floor area and let the rest of what happens happen.

I have an upcoming show where my client told me: "it will be easy do do with your smaller rig, why we did it last year with ours bar rig and only blew up one speaker!"

This!

[sam saponaro]

Sam, with the situation you describe I think it may be best simply forget about trying to cover 1,000+ people and simply cover the dance floor same as any other gig.

When combining mismatched systems what really works quite well is a dual PA.  Put the vocals in the smaller one and the instruments in the larger one w/subs.

Focus both systems on the dance floor area and let the rest of what happens happen.

I have an upcoming show where my client told me: "it will be easy do do with your smaller rig, why we did it last year with ours bar rig and only blew up one speaker!"

Tim you are right. But I know when running sound at the same place,I got bombarded by hords of people complaining they couldn't hear the band(that was with the bands Powered Mackie setup pushed as far as I could without blowing something)

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Tim you are right. But I know when running sound at the same place,I got bombarded by hords of people complaining they couldn't hear the band(that was with the bands Powered Mackie setup pushed as far as I could without blowing something)

Smile and direct them to the front of the listening area.  Without about 4x the output you have now, you'll never get rid of the complaints.  They're probably not really listening, but yacking with their friends.  People who are running their mouths aren't usually using their ears.

By the way:  how high are you elevating your tops???

[Tim Perry]

Tim you are right. But I know when running sound at the same place,I got bombarded by hords of people complaining they couldn't hear the band(that was with the bands Powered Mackie setup pushed as far as I could without blowing something)

This is why I became a hobbyist. I now buy pretty much whatever I want (within reason).

My next gig is for 4,500 runners. If anyone cant hear, they won't have time to complain:)
 

[Mark McFarlane]

There are a couple options with the gear you have:

1) Dual PA, already discussed, one possibly for vocals only, other PA for whatever remains.  Avoids the comb filtering problem from the same source coming from two different cabinets close to each other.

2) Delays. Put the Yamaha's 'out in the crowd' and time delay them so they fire at the same time as the sound is arriving from the stage.  You'll need the right hardware to do ~100ms delay for a, e.g.,  stack 100' away from the stage. And ideally a way to measure the delays for fine tuning.

[Brad Weber]

Let's see if I can summarize what you have:
 

• 2 EAW full range boxes of some kind that you normally run bi-amped
• 2 Yamaha S3115H boxes with replacement JBL woofers
• 2 TL505 subs
• 2 TL505 subs with replacement Carvin drivers
• 2 CE 1000 amps, normally used one per channel for the bi-amped EAWs
• 2 CE 2000 amps, normally used one per side in bridge mode for the subs
• Some undefined crossover or processor
• I assume some undefined mixer

Is that an accurate summary?
 
Do you have to run the EAWs bi-amped or could you run both off bi-amped but off one amp?  What is your mixer and system processing and what EQ and other processing might they provide?
 
You did not mention anything about the pattern of the boxes involved.  If your concern is coverage then that is probably going to be a crticial consideration.  If nothing else, it makes it difficult to offer recommendations without knowing the speaker patterns involved.  Also consider that your subs may be greatly omnidirectional.
 
Are you thinking of running mono or trying to be stereo everywhere or perhaps some mix of stereo for some coverage areas and mono for others?
 
Dick hit it on the head with what may be realistic and if you don't have what is necessary to make it work acceptably in general then you may want to focus on making it the best you can for a more limited area.

[sam saponaro]

My chain goes
1990s EV BK1642 Mixer->Ashly GQ131 EQ->DBX 223XL
DBX223XL Hi out->CH2 on each CE1000 to the EAWs horns Mid out-> to each CE1000 CH1 to EAW midbass woofer and Low out to each CE2000 each bridged and running X2 TL505 each.
Only other processors I have are Comps,Noise Gate and Vocal FX unit.
This a very basic all analog "club band" system.
I run the system mono and tri-amped(hi,mid,bass).The Yamahas are Bi-amp also.
I planned on setting the tops up high enough so the midbass woofer is about shoulder level to me(6ft tall)for this job.
I do not know the exact patterns of the boxes but they are all direct radiator,vented  reflex boxes(not horn loaded). The EAWs have 100/40 degree horns,Yamahas are some kind of 90 degree horn.

[sam saponaro]

I got thinkin on the duel PA thing.
Would it work well to say put my whole normal club system(1 top 2 bottoms side) run off the left sub mix out,panning all the instruments and drums hard left. Then Pan Vocals hard right running right sub out to a seperate EQ(HPF set approx 100Hz)into a seperate amp and run the Yamaha's just as a vocals PA off the right side of my board?
The Yamaha's are bi-amp but I could re-connect the internal x-overs for fullrange in this setup if need be.

[Tim Perry]

I got thinkin on the duel PA thing.
Would it work well to say put my whole normal club system(1 top 2 bottoms side) run off the left sub mix out,panning all the instruments and drums hard left. Then Pan Vocals hard right running right sub out to a seperate EQ(HPF set approx 100Hz)into a seperate amp and run the Yamaha's just as a vocals PA off the right side of my board?
The Yamaha's are bi-amp but I could re-connect the internal x-overs for fullrange in this setup if need be.

It should work. If it somehow become a problem you can always pan back. Use either or both for vocals and accept whatever comb effect occurs. Happened to me on a metal gig.. my VOX PA simply wasn't up to it.
My solution: get more rig and decline most metal gigs.

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