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[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

TJ, great point on not flying powered cabs and I didn't expect install boxes to be larger, heavier - interesting.

We do know the facility and have access to it. That is how I have the measurements that I have. We will co-own the facility with another congregation. It is a very interesting coming together with great people involved. Their sound system is terrible but they have had no budget to work with so its understandable.

Your comment about the difference in cab construction seems like it is a reference to higher end products and I understand that, if that is truly the case. The Danley line looks to be that way. This is part of what I am investigating. And, if we could afford a system like i think you are referring to, I would happily wait for that and push through with what we have on the portable side. It just seems to me that for this room, to do anything greater than portable cabs would be well over 20K. I am working with an assumption that doe MFG's make cabs that are dual purposed and that the KW, Presonus and many more are in that class.

To both, I appreciate the cautionary language. You took the time to help me avoid pitfalls and I really appreciate that.

I guess I need to back up a step and ask my question again, this way:
In the price range of $2K/cab or sub, what are some brands I should check into for either full install pieces or for dual purposed pieces?

I loved EAW, don't like JBL nor Yamaha, don't have confidence in EV, am ok with QSC, am impressed with Presonus, but I know there is a lot out there that I am not familiar with.

Thanks a bunch.

Your initial number of $15K would potentially be in the range (possibly on the low side) for a couple Danley boxes, an amp, and some installation design and labor.

What does $2K/box mean?  It appears you are focusing on powered boxes.  At that level, I know of few that are a material step up from your HPR153s from a sound quality standpoint.  There are many boxes that are lighter, but that's the minor part.  If you've already got a new space picked out, just forget about your current situation - seriously.

With all due respect from one church guy to another - you're barking up the wrong tree with your current thought process.  If money is tight such that your budget is really $4,000, you're going to get a poorly-performing installed system.  The design and labor alone will likely be $4,000.  There's nothing worse than under-buying main loudspeakers, because they are the hardest part of the system to upgrade later, involving a re-design, lifts, labor, etc.  Spend $15,000 - $20,000 on system design, installation, and the right main speakers, even if you have to live for a while with 100% existing equipment for everything else.

Do not make the mistake of white listing and black listing entire brands of speakers.  EAW was a market leader in the '80s and '90s.  They are much less so today, though they do have some great products.  JBL, Community, and EV make both bottom of the barrel and fantastic quality equipment.  Newer players like Fulcrum and Danley have great products as well, and have advanced the state of the art of point-source speakers more than many other players.

This forum has a reputation for being a little bit prickly, but generally speaking, that's because people are unwilling to give people answers they want to hear, and instead give the answers they need to hear.  Your situation isn't particularly unique - there are lots of churches with limited funds trying to get things to stretch.    I can say with confidence (and experience) that your current thought process will ultimately turn out to be short sighted, and you will be disappointed with the results sooner rather than later.  Ultimately, the least expensive move you can make is to do it right the first time.  Get some design help, get a real budget, and get the right speakers for the job.

[Ivan Beaver]

This forum has a reputation for being a little bit prickly, but generally speaking, that's because people are unwilling to give people answers they want to hear, and instead give the answers they need to hear.  Your situation isn't particularly unique - there are lots of churches with limited funds trying to get things to stretch.    I can say with confidence (and experience) that your current thought process will ultimately turn out to be short sighted, and you will be disappointed with the results sooner rather than later.  Ultimately, the least expensive move you can make is to do it right the first time.  Get some design help, get a real budget, and get the right speakers for the job.

The loudspeaker system is NOT the thing you should be skimping on-for a couple of reasons.

First of all the loudspeaker system is the single thing in a system that makes the biggest difference in sound.  Both in quality and coverage. 

While there are very small sonic differences between consoles and other pieces of gear-there are often HUGE sonic differences in loudspeakers.

Next-it is the hardest thing to replace or upgrade.  If you want to upgrade your console-no big deal-go buy a new one.  But a new loudspeaker system requires skilled install-and that labor could cost as much as the loudspeaker.

Now this does not mean you go out and spend a lot of money-but it DOES MEAN you need to get a PROPERLY DESIGNED loudspeaker system for YOUR room.

Just because a loudspeakers works well in one room does not mean it will work in yours.

A good example is a spot light.  Yes they are bright -but does that mean you want to use a spot light for general lighting in your living room?  Just try to provide good overall lighting in your Sanctuary using a couple of spot lights-not gonna happen. 

But the proper use of brightness and width of coverage can make all the difference.

[Robert-Smith]

What does $2K/box mean?  It appears you are focusing on powered boxes.  At that level, I know of few that are a material step up from your HPR153s from a sound quality standpoint.  There are many boxes that are lighter, but that's the minor part.  If you've already got a new space picked out, just forget about your current situation - seriously.

Everything has a price. It seems that every time I say something assumptions are being made. The Danley I inquired about is a $9K+ box. Quesiton answered, elsewhere.

With all due respect from one church guy to another - you're barking up the wrong tree with your current thought process.  If money is tight such that your budget is really $4,000, you're going to get a poorly-performing installed system.  The design and labor alone will likely be $4,000.  There's nothing worse than under-buying main loudspeakers, because they are the hardest part of the system to upgrade later, involving a re-design, lifts, labor, etc.  Spend $15,000 - $20,000 on system design, installation, and the right main speakers, even if you have to live for a while with 100% existing equipment for everything else.

First I said the budget was about $15K. People didn't seem to grasp that. I tried again by putting a price on boxes. I likely will not purchase $5K boxes or $10K boxes. It is a point of reference.

Do not make the mistake of white listing and black listing entire brands of speakers.  EAW was a market leader in the '80s and '90s.  They are much less so today, though they do have some great products.  JBL, Community, and EV make both bottom of the barrel and fantastic quality equipment.  Newer players like Fulcrum and Danley have great products as well, and have advanced the state of the art of point-source speakers more than many other players.

I have extensive experience with JBL. I DON'T like the voice of any JBL cab I have heard. Further I have experience with different pieces of gear, including speakers form Yamaha. i don't care for their products. It's pretty cocky of people to argue with someone's preference. Feel free to cast aspersions but my preference is MY preference. You don't have to agree and you certainly don't need to try and educate me about my preferences. RIDICULOUS.

This forum has a reputation for being a little bit prickly

A little? How about completely? I won't be back to post here. You guys can talk theory and do's and don't's to your heart's content. I didn't ask for a physics lessons. I asked very specific questions and NOT ONE has escape the discounting, elitist responses. It gives me good cause to reciprocate and question your ear for sound. Maybe I should ask you to re-evaluate how you approach sound and give you my do's and don'ts for critical listening.

By the way… you're getting great advice now….

Gents, it would be different if one took the time to offer an explanation why they don't feel they can talk bout manufacturers and requested more information. This is the normal discourse on other, friendly forums.

Enjoy yourselves.

[Tommy Peel]

....
Enjoy yourselves.

Lot's of good advice given above... You should re-read and listen next time.

In short keep saving your money till you can get what will work(EAW, Danley, JBL, EV, Etc... install boxes properly installed and tuned) for the future install instead of trying to bandaid your current setup and hoping it will work for the future install.

[Robert-Smith]

Lot's of good advice given above... You should re-read and listen next time.

In short keep saving your money till you can get what will work(EAW, Danley, JBL, EV, Etc... install boxes properly installed and tuned) for the future install instead of trying to bandaid your current setup and hoping it will work for the future install.

Thankfully, much I already knew but that is part of the problem. Lot's of assumptions and hopefully you will listen to this:

Experience never negates the call to kindness and conversation. Hopefully, you will learn not to talk down to people as you just did.

forgot to unsubscribe… that is now done.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Thankfully, much I already knew but that is part of the problem. Lot's of assumptions and hopefully you will listen to this:

Experience never negates the call to kindness and conversation. Hopefully, you will learn not to talk down to people as you just did.

forgot to unsubscribe… that is now done.

The kindest thing I can do is tell you how it really is.  If you can't handle that (and every word I wrote was with respect and experience trying to help you get the best end result), there's nothing I can do for you.  I am truly sorry (but not surprised) that you came here looking for validation for the decision you already made and are going home empty. 

Good luck with those other "itching ears" forums.

[Jason Lucas]

Wow I really hope I didn't sound this dense or arrogant when I started posting on here...sheesh.

Agree with TJ here, seems quite clear OP has made his decision and was simply looking for validation. I hate to admit I've done the same thing in the past. Live and learn.

[Ivan Beaver]

Thankfully, much I already knew but that is part of the problem. Lot's of assumptions and hopefully you will listen to this:

Experience never negates the call to kindness and conversation. Hopefully, you will learn not to talk down to people as you just did.

forgot to unsubscribe… that is now done.

You probably wont read this-but very often people ask a question-but all they really want is for others to tell them they are making the right decision.

When they find out that nobody agrees with them-they don't want to listen to what more experienced people are telling them-and go away mad.

It is truly sorry-it is their loss.

The theory and details ARE important.  Without the "geeky stuff", better products do not come out.

If everybody was making products that are "cool", the overall quality of products available would be much lower and the bar much lower than it is now.

Hop you have fun on the "friendly" forums--where they don't talk about real substance---------------

[Jonathan Johnson]

This forum has a reputation for being a little bit prickly, but generally speaking, that's because people are unwilling to give people answers they want to hear, and instead give the answers they need to hear.

A little? How about completely? I won't be back to post here. You guys can talk theory and do's and don't's to your heart's content. I didn't ask for a physics lessons. I asked very specific questions and NOT ONE has escape the discounting, elitist responses. It gives me good cause to reciprocate and question your ear for sound. Maybe I should ask you to re-evaluate how you approach sound and give you my do's and don'ts for critical listening.

There are a couple of overriding philosophies you'll find on this forum.

First is that rather than giving recommendations for specific products based on the limited information you can provide in a forum (and believe me, there's no way anyone can competently evaluate your situation without laying eyes and ears on it), the folks here want to give you the tools so that you can evaluate different products yourself. That involves physics lessons, and you will be better off for it. In other words, no one here will design your system for free, but we'll give you free advice to help you make sure your system is designed and deployed correctly. Sometimes that advice is to hire an experienced professional, because some things require a significant amount of experience to get right the first time.

Secondly, we believe in first evaluating needs, developing solutions, THEN working on the budget. It's foolish to decide how much you are going to spend before you understand the problem, let alone how to fix it.

I can see how that can come across as prickly. I've been prickled myself. You think you're asking a straightforward answer, and all you get is a run-around. Kind of like asking how to drive a car and being told how an internal combustion engine works. Really, though, in all that brusqueness we want to help and want you to succeed. Too bad you aren't going to be around anymore to learn that.

[frank kayser]

(sigh) Sad response to a great thread.    Reading through, I never saw that ending coming.

[ProSoundWeb Community]