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[Randall Hyde]

Hi everyone. I would like to purchase some pa speakers. Currently im considering prx 625 or 635, Yamaha dsr 215, qsc kw153, haven't decided on subs yet that would depend on the speakers I get. Can someone please suggest, or help me out with advice which ones are better. I have live x pa system, and use presonus 24.4.2 sound board. That system is fine for local bars and small parties. however, I would like to upgrade to I bit louder system for bigger events and maybe some outdoor gigs. Also, trying not to spend more than $1500 per speaker, hoping for less. Small budget...forgot to add before, powered is better for me to save up room in the van, also saves money ithink. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks

I use PRX boxes for my B rig (625, 635, about to get some 618s XLF boxes). As much as I'm a JBL house, I'd suggest the QSC 153/181 combo at this segment of the market. Smaller (but weight more) and probably going to have fewer reliability problems.

The PRX (typically) has a 90-degree coverage pattern. The QSC 153 has 70 IIRC. So the QSC will push a little deeper (though, obviously, not as wide). Outdoors, I find the PRX cabinets run out of steam really fast (my SRX "A" rig blows these guys away -- though I do use an order of magnitude more power in my SRX rig). 

I've been doing a weekly "movie nite" gig with my PRX 625 and 635 cabinets (two per side, yeah, comb filter hell) and the four of them are barely audible at the outside fringes of the audience (maybe 1,000 people show up, maybe). Keep in mind that this is with compressed recorded material. For a live show, the speakers wouldn't work at all with a crowd size like this (outdoors). I've done indoor shows with 500 people no sweat, but outside these cabinets just die off real quick (the QSCs won't be a whole lot better; it really takes a *lot* more power to do larger outdoor shows).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Othmane Alaoui]

Hey !

I do not want to jump on this thread ... but I feel its pretty related. Is a rig of 8 x SRX718 with PL4.0 bridged per 2 subs (Or 4 728's) grounded and 4x QRX212's flown at about 6 feets on top of the stage is okay, in-off or way under basic needs for Metal/Rock outdoor gig for 1000 people ? The stage is an SL100. I do not think the ''room'' will be wider than the stage. FOH is at 75' Max. Would it be better to add ''delay'' boxes such EF508 or QRX115 on top of single 18 subs ?

The whole idea is if you do not need to go outdoor often, then your rig can be a lot smaller and used as delay speakers or sidefills for larger events where you rent the main sound kit. That way your stuff is used even during larger event and your ROI will be better.

For me, it is a good question too, in Fact, I started with 2 yorkville NX25's (small conference of 100-150People) Ended up with 4 because of room sizes. Then went with the QSC HPR 122i, what a nice box, still have 8 of them using them for small to medium size indoor partys, larger conferences or seminars and small events. Than got into the bi-amp world with the EF508's coupled with SRX728 Subs and now using the whole rig including the EV QRX 212 as main ( The EF508 are sometimes used as center fill or delay). It took me almost 9 years to get all of this following the need and the demand - Slowly getting more to fulfill specific needs. On larger indoor event such a rock concert of 6000 people, I rent a complete rig from larger companies, its easier and a lot more fun ! Outside is very difficult to analyse ...

Othmane

[Stuart Pendleton]

I use 4 QRX212 tops over 4 LS1208 subs, with ample Crown power for the boxes. While I feel pretty good about the rig handling classic rock, jazz, R&B, and some other genres for a reasonable crowd (i.e. small festival) in a close packed outdoor environment, I am not comfortable with the system for a crowd of 1000 when working for a metal band. I would want to double my system for that show.

While the system MIGHT survive the metal show of doom, it would be running on the ragged edge all night. That isn't good for me or the client.

[Othmane Alaoui]

I use 4 QRX212 tops over 4 LS1208 subs, with ample Crown power for the boxes. While I feel pretty good about the rig handling classic rock, jazz, R&B, and some other genres for a reasonable crowd (i.e. small festival) in a close packed outdoor environment, I am not comfortable with the system for a crowd of 1000 when working for a metal band. I would want to double my system for that show.

While the system MIGHT survive the metal show of doom, it would be running on the ragged edge all night. That isn't good for me or the client.

Thanks ! I would certainly do not want to put the rig under broil situation !

[Randall Hyde]

Hey !

I do not want to jump on this thread ... but I feel its pretty related. Is a rig of 8 x SRX718 with PL4.0 bridged per 2 subs (Or 4 728's) grounded and 4x QRX212's flown at about 6 feets on top of the stage is okay, in-off or way under basic needs for Metal/Rock outdoor gig for 1000 people ? The stage is an SL100. I do not think the ''room'' will be wider than the stage. FOH is at 75' Max. Would it be better to add ''delay'' boxes such EF508 or QRX115 on top of single 18 subs ?

The bottoms could probably use more power (I use six SRX 728s driven by ITech 8000s when doing shows with 2,000-,2500). I run four SRX 725 cabinets (cross-fired, typically) bi-amped off ITech 8K + XTi2K (HF). Again, 2,000-2,500. All outdoors. Not as loud as I'd like at the back of the crowd; rip-your-ears-off loud near the stage, decent rock volume at FOH (100-125', probably 105 dB SPL).  Figure you're filling half the distance I am, so you might be okay. I'd probably want a little more on the tops, but that's just me.  Indoors, you should do great.

The whole idea is if you do not need to go outdoor often, then your rig can be a lot smaller and used as delay speakers or sidefills for larger events where you rent the main sound kit. That way your stuff is used even during larger event and your ROI will be better.

I use delay stacks on my larger shows. I've tried QSC KW 12" and JBL PRX 625. They were both worthless (FOH mains blew them away after 50', this is with the delays being 150-250' from the stage). A pair of SRX 725 cabinets driven by an XTi4000 amp do okay.

BUT....
The problem with delay stacks is that they really only sound *good* in one spot. Move too far away from them and the phase/delay errors start accumulating (to the point you can hear the sounds from the two different sources). Yeah, for non-critical ears (most of my audience) it's okay. Drives me nuts though and makes me think about investing in a line array (or a really great point source system, like Danley) at some point.

For me, it is a good question too, in Fact, I started with 2 yorkville NX25's (small conference of 100-150People) Ended up with 4 because of room sizes. Then went with the QSC HPR 122i, what a nice box, still have 8 of them using them for small to medium size indoor partys, larger conferences or seminars and small events. Than got into the bi-amp world with the EF508's coupled with SRX728 Subs and now using the whole rig including the EV QRX 212 as main ( The EF508 are sometimes used as center fill or delay). It took me almost 9 years to get all of this following the need and the demand - Slowly getting more to fulfill specific needs. On larger indoor event such a rock concert of 6000 people, I rent a complete rig from larger companies, its easier and a lot more fun ! Outside is very difficult to analyse ...

Othmane

Outdoors is a lot easier because venue acoustics tend not to be an issue. The problem with outdoors is that you need about 4x the power as you don't have the reverberant field to back you up. I think I'm pushing the limits one can achieve with traps outdoors (2,000-2,500 people, once in a while more) as the inverse-squared law is killing me (too loud up front, too quiet in the back). I either need to fly some point source speakers (e.g., Danley SH 46) high enough that I put some decent distance between the speakers and the front row (or go over their heads and use front fill for the people up front) or I need to go to a line array where only part of the power is directed near the front and I can blast away at the people in the back.

Whatever the case, it's going to cost a *lot* of money to get anything substantially better than my current rig. For the time, I'm happy limited myself to the jobs I can do with the SRX gear.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Othmane Alaoui]

The bottoms could probably use more power (I use six SRX 728s driven by ITech 8000s when doing shows with 2,000-,2500). I run four SRX 725 cabinets (cross-fired, typically) bi-amped off ITech 8K + XTi2K (HF). Again, 2,000-2,500. All outdoors. Not as loud as I'd like at the back of the crowd; rip-your-ears-off loud near the stage, decent rock volume at FOH (100-125', probably 105 dB SPL).  Figure you're filling half the distance I am, so you might be okay. I'd probably want a little more on the tops, but that's just me.  Indoors, you should do great.
I use delay stacks on my larger shows. I've tried QSC KW 12" and JBL PRX 625. They were both worthless (FOH mains blew them away after 50', this is with the delays being 150-250' from the stage). A pair of SRX 725 cabinets driven by an XTi4000 amp do okay.

BUT....
The problem with delay stacks is that they really only sound *good* in one spot. Move too far away from them and the phase/delay errors start accumulating (to the point you can hear the sounds from the two different sources). Yeah, for non-critical ears (most of my audience) it's okay. Drives me nuts though and makes me think about investing in a line array (or a really great point source system, like Danley) at some point.
Outdoors is a lot easier because venue acoustics tend not to be an issue. The problem with outdoors is that you need about 4x the power as you don't have the reverberant field to back you up. I think I'm pushing the limits one can achieve with traps outdoors (2,000-2,500 people, once in a while more) as the inverse-squared law is killing me (too loud up front, too quiet in the back). I either need to fly some point source speakers (e.g., Danley SH 46) high enough that I put some decent distance between the speakers and the front row (or go over their heads and use front fill for the people up front) or I need to go to a line array where only part of the power is directed near the front and I can blast away at the people in the back.

Whatever the case, it's going to cost a *lot* of money to get anything substantially better than my current rig. For the time, I'm happy limited myself to the jobs I can do with the SRX gear.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Thanks Randall !

This is pretty good information for all people like me and Rick and even you !! As far as power, here is how I power my rig :
4 SRX78 with 4x PL4.0 bridged ( thats 4000watt in each cab )
4 QRX212 with 2 x PLX3402 for mids and 2 PL1.8 for highs
2 DR260's
I can add 2 extra 728 with 2 pl4.0 ...

The stage is at 4feet from ground and the tops are at 6 feet from stage so the tops are flown at almost 10 feets from ground and people. I will use 2 HPR122i for front fill if they are worth it.
Your are probably rigth for the delay's. My idea was to put them on ST132 flown at 9-10feet, the boxes are EF508 bi-amped (Yorkville AP4040(mid) and QSC GX3(Highs).  .

I feel the same, unfortunately I do not have in off outdoor gigs to justify bigger sound rig. I tend to not go after larger events because of all the headaches that comes with it. 

But that being said, Rick I do not think any small powered cab such PRX, QSC KW or HPR is the right tool for the job unless its a small Party or basic parc sound reinforcement !

The most important thing is to know your limits before blowing your stuff and your customer confidence on you !!

BR
Othmane

Cheers !

[Kemper Watson]

This.

I blew up my share of PA learning This in the early 1980s.

I must be going through that phase now..

[Randall Hyde]

Thanks Randall !

This is pretty good information for all people like me and Rick and even you !! As far as power, here is how I power my rig :
4 SRX78 with 4x PL4.0 bridged ( thats 4000watt in each cab )

4000 watts into a 718s is pretty aggressive (peak power handling is 3200 watts IIRC).
4KW into a pair of 718s in parallel (4 ohms?) sounds about right.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Othmane Alaoui]

4000 watts into a 718s is pretty aggressive (peak power handling is 3200 watts IIRC).
4KW into a pair of 718s in parallel (4 ohms?) sounds about right.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Hello Randall, its bridged PL4.0 per SRX728 or 2xSRX718 .... even 4K seems a bit too much, limiters are set not to destroy the driver ...

[Rick Hash]

Hi everyone. Thank you all for all your suggestions. Definitely helped me and will be help for the future when I want to expend my gear. Based on my needs and budget I decided to go with prx735 and prx718xlf. I believe that is a good start for large bars and some halls. Also, could add a couple more in the future if needed. With any success I will probably upgrade to stx or whatever will be on the market at that time. Unless I win a lottery... than line arrays 

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