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Author Topic: Volume Pedals....  (Read 8143 times)

Tommy Peel

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Volume Pedals....
« on: May 07, 2013, 09:20:20 PM »

So the band at church tends to vary week to week, our normal lead guitar player is great; he, for the most part, keeps his volume pedal on or off.

However we've got a new guy who's been playing with them some and he is constantly adjusting the volume pedal (as in his foot is resting on it through most of the service) on his multieffect unit. Oddly enough the main problem is him not having it up loud enough and because the amp is Mic'd I sometimes don't have enough gain before feedback.

They don't like it when I try to run a DI(although that may be what I have to do). I've told him several times to not adjust it so much but so far that hasn't worked.

The main problem is that most of the time when I turn him up he turns himself down or vice versa.Does anybody have an idea of how to handle this? I don't always have enough channels to Mic the amp and use a DI, but I've thought about using a DI and sticking a Mic in front of the amp without connecting the Mic cable to the snake. ;D

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Scott B Nelson

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 09:28:10 PM »

... we've got a new guy who's been playing with them some and he is constantly adjusting the volume pedal (as in his foot is resting on it through most of the service) ... Does anybody have an idea of how to handle this?
How about replacing the volume petal with a tuning pedal that turns the signal off when tuning?
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Michael Elphinstone

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 09:33:41 PM »

It sounds like you're looking for a technical solution that requires a people solution. Talk to guitarist away from the stage, like on their week off, and chat about the problem. Help them understand why it's an issue, then work with them to solve it. If the issue is that it's too quiet, why go looking for a fancy solution when they have a volume pedal! Teach the guitarist why an even volume level is important for you and the congregation. If their effects aren't all generating the same volume level, help the guy work it out, but outside the normal service/rehearsal times.

Not to rain on your tech parade, but in my experience it just requires a few chats to help the player understand. If they see you've got their best interests at heart, they should come along for the ride.

Cheers,
Michael
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »

Scott,
The pedal in question is part of a multieffect unit.

It sounds like you're looking for a technical solution that requires a people solution. Talk to guitarist away from the stage, like on their week off, and chat about the problem. Help them understand why it's an issue, then work with them to solve it. If the issue is that it's too quiet, why go looking for a fancy solution when they have a volume pedal! Teach the guitarist why an even volume level is important for you and the congregation. If their effects aren't all generating the same volume level, help the guy work it out, but outside the normal service/rehearsal times.

Not to rain on your tech parade, but in my experience it just requires a few chats to help the player understand. If they see you've got their best interests at heart, they should come along for the ride.

Cheers,
Michael

You've probably hit the nail on the head... Technical solutions are just easier to implement most of the time. :)

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Jason Lucas

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 11:58:01 PM »

I don't the think the guitarists at my church could ever turn their amps too low for me... I hardly ever put them in the mains because their amps are so loud.
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Samuel Rees

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Volume Pedals....
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2013, 12:15:25 AM »

My dad has a band that plays occasionally, and the frontman uses a volume pedal on his elec piano and its a problem. Mostly in that he demand "headroom" such that when the volume pedal is at full it is unreasonably loud in his wedge. They play small shows. I have to leave all this headroom on his input at the desk, but keep his wedge loud. Compression is difficult because he just fights it with the pedal. Because the wedge is so close he hears even the quiet dynamics clearly but the crowd doesn't unless I ride the fader against his changes. Tried the human solution, now trying the suck it up solution haha.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2013, 02:05:08 AM »

I don't the think the guitarists at my church could ever turn their amps too low for me... I hardly ever put them in the mains because their amps are so loud.

Well I've got the amp about 2ft from the players ear aimed across the stage at close to head level. The players know I put the guitar through the mains and keep it at very reasonable levels but with where I have to put the amp the Mic for it is to close to and aimed at the mains hence my feedback issues when the amp isn't loud enough.

I'm very thankful that I don't have to deal with overly loud guitar amps the time.... but don't get me started on our drummer. :)

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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2013, 02:11:34 AM »

My dad has a band that plays occasionally, and the frontman uses a volume pedal on his elec piano and its a problem. Mostly in that he demand "headroom" such that when the volume pedal is at full it is unreasonably loud in his wedge. They play small shows. I have to leave all this headroom on his input at the desk, but keep his wedge loud. Compression is difficult because he just fights it with the pedal. Because the wedge is so close he hears even the quiet dynamics clearly but the crowd doesn't unless I ride the fader against his changes. Tried the human solution, now trying the suck it up solution haha.

This sounds very much like what I'm dealing with(minus the wedge). I haven't tried compression(which I don't need with our other guitar player) but I suspect that he would fight it too.

I think that if he was farther behind the mains where he couldn't hear himself through them as much I wouldn't have as much of a problem(not to mention all the other feedback problems we have); but our building and stage are small and there isn't anywhere else to put them.

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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »

Well I've got the amp about 2ft from the players ear aimed across the stage at close to head level. The players know I put the guitar through the mains and keep it at very reasonable levels but with where I have to put the amp the Mic for it is to close to and aimed at the mains hence my feedback issues when the amp isn't loud enough.

I'm very thankful that I don't have to deal with overly loud guitar amps the time.... but don't get me started on our drummer. :)

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What are you using for a mic and how far away from the amp is it? I generally stick with EV ND308 or Sennhesier E906, hung by the cord from the handle so the mic is against the grill cloth. IME the amp has to be 55dB and the mains Van Halen loud for that combination to feedback, given the directional characteristics of the mics and SPL varying at the square of the distance.
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Tommy Peel

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Volume Pedals....
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 12:29:05 AM »

What are you using for a mic and how far away from the amp is it? I generally stick with EV ND308 or Sennhesier E906, hung by the cord from the handle so the mic is against the grill cloth. IME the amp has to be 55dB and the mains Van Halen loud for that combination to feedback, given the directional characteristics of the mics and SPL varying at the square of the distance.

Mic is a SM57(best mic I have for the job) pressed into the grill cloth. I wouldn't call it Van Halen loud but the mic is pointed almost at the right main "through" the guitar amp(open back 2-12 Crate). I'd love to get an e906 but we need different vocal mics and monitors before I can start thinking about that. Generally the feedback is low frequency and could probably be notched out easily if I had a GEQ for the mains.... But that's still on the shopping list.


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BobWitte

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 12:55:48 PM »


SM57 is a fine guitar amp mic still used more than any other mic. It is usually not pressed against the grill cloth though - 1/4-1/2 inch distance. We put our guitarists cabs off stage and provide a good monitor mix to them (in ears for us but a wedge would work too). That way the amp can be plenty loud, the stage sound is not affected by it and we can control the monitor volume. If he hears enough through the mains, then how much does he need the cab close by? Are you using the High Pass Filter on your mixer channel? You can also use the low frequency channel EQ to reduce the potential feedback at low frequencies....

Mic is a SM57(best mic I have for the job) pressed into the grill cloth. I wouldn't call it Van Halen loud but the mic is pointed almost at the right main "through" the guitar amp(open back 2-12 Crate). I'd love to get an e906 but we need different vocal mics and monitors before I can start thinking about that. Generally the feedback is low frequency and could probably be notched out easily if I had a GEQ for the mains.... But that's still on the shopping list.


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Jason Lucas

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 01:12:00 PM »

If Tommy's guitarists are anything like the ones at my church they'd never go for a wedge.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 01:38:37 PM »

SM57 is a fine guitar amp mic still used more than any other mic. It is usually not pressed against the grill cloth though - 1/4-1/2 inch distance. We put our guitarists cabs off stage and provide a good monitor mix to them (in ears for us but a wedge would work too). That way the amp can be plenty loud, the stage sound is not affected by it and we can control the monitor volume. If he hears enough through the mains, then how much does he need the cab close by? Are you using the High Pass Filter on your mixer channel? You can also use the low frequency channel EQ to reduce the potential feedback at low frequencies....

I'm using the HP filter on it, I'll work with the channel eq next week. I might be able to convince him to use a wedge if he had a dedicated wedge and mix(which we don't have right now); I'd love to get the amp of the stage (along with the bass amp) but right now we have a poor monitor situation and little money to make it better. Where he is standing he is too far off axis of the mains to get much from the HF horn.

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Mark Turner

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2013, 11:15:47 AM »

There's an old joke...
How do you get a guitar play to play more quietly?
Put sheet music in front of him!

Seriously, I run sound and play guitar (not at the same time if I can help it). Speaking from experience, I play a lot softer when I am uncomfortable with the music I'm playing.  Maybe that's part of the problem? Might be worth a friendly chat.

Another thought is monitoring.  If what the player is hearing seems too loud to him then he may be turning down so he can hear the rest of the band.  Might be worth trying to stand with him during a rehearsal to see what he's hearing.

Patience, love and knowledge are your best tools!

Mark
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Josh Daws

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 11:57:00 AM »

my solution...let it go...if he complains tell him to stop playing. there is only so much you can do. if you ride his fader then it leaves you not concentrating of other aspects. i would sound check it at his loudest level, and then put it at a reasonable level, and if he lowers his volume, his problem, if not great. it may be distracting, but eventually someone will say something and you can explain to them what is going on. someone will get the hint...
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Tim Perry

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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 10:36:13 PM »

Mic is a SM57(best mic I have for the job) pressed into the grill cloth. I wouldn't call it Van Halen loud but the mic is pointed almost at the right main "through" the guitar amp(open back 2-12 Crate). I'd love to get an e906 but we need different vocal mics and monitors before I can start thinking about that. Generally the feedback is low frequency and could probably be notched out easily if I had a GEQ for the mains.... But that's still on the shopping list.

Try micing the back of the amp... this will put the '57's null toward the mains.
 
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Re: Volume Pedals....
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 10:36:13 PM »


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