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Author Topic: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?  (Read 40180 times)

Per Sovik

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #240 on: January 29, 2014, 11:21:24 am »

Anyone else check their shell-to-shell connection?

My life has been easy (despite my earlier post somewhat in jest) after I got the S16 and later also the X32Rack, and the lack of issues have meant that I haven't really checked my equipment.
My thinking might be wrong here, but my guess is that the connected/not connected conundrum might be greatly influenced by how well the equipment is tied together by a common grounding. If all the communicating stuff has a solid common ground, all discharge should go there, and one doesn't want any discharge through the cat5 shielding. If the common ground is weak, one will want the shielding to be properly connected all the way so that any discharge doesn't have to jump any gaps.
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Brian Bolly

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #241 on: January 29, 2014, 11:58:49 am »

One Kitagawa SFC-6 source: http://www.1sourcecomponents.com/store/product_info.php/kitagawa-sfc-split-ferrite-snap-cable-629ohms-p-451510

$3.71 each

Yes, but they have a $50 minimum order.  The only place I've found with those parts that doesn't wants $25 each for them - c'est la vie.  Fortunately I'm not in a hurry, this was only to build a backup cable.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #242 on: January 29, 2014, 02:00:06 pm »

Anyone else check their shell-to-shell connection?


My thinking might be wrong here, but my guess is that the connected/not connected conundrum might be greatly influenced by how well the equipment is tied together by a common grounding. If all the communicating stuff has a solid common ground, all discharge should go there, and one doesn't want any discharge through the cat5 shielding. If the common ground is weak, one will want the shielding to be properly connected all the way so that any discharge doesn't have to jump any gaps.

Ahem.

Coincidentally, a friend whose other work bought a Midas Pro 3 also got the Midas shielded Ethercon cable with it, but is not using it, loaned it to me last night. I checked it between the S16's and console with the sparker, and found it just as useless as unshielded cable. Measuring shell-to-shell showed no continuity, and what looks like totally plastic RJ45's.

Also, earlier in this thread Brian Wynn pretty conclusively showed that both UTP with Ethercons and STP without Ethercons were equivalently lousy. I inferred that shell continuity is key, and what I found last night confirms that importance, IMHO.

For the record, both his setup and mine are powering S16's and console from the same AC with short grounded cables.

UPDATE: He just came over to reterminate the cable, and discovered that it was UTP after all, despite being sold to him as the correct cable for the Midas console, which specs STP. He's going to go back to the vendor to see what the deal was. FWIW, it sounded like the vendor simply had given him the Official Midas cable, so we'll see.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:52:19 pm by Dan Mortensen »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #243 on: January 29, 2014, 02:17:15 pm »

For very high edge rate signals (like an electrical spark) the wire impedance may be significantly inductive. The model for what is really going on between the two chassis grounds is not obvious (to me).

The recent discussion about adding a ferrite clamp (to increase inductance?) is likewise not obvious (to me).

I will continue to follow this with academic interest.   8) Good luck to all following this with commercial interest.  :o

JR
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Brian Wynn

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #244 on: January 29, 2014, 05:59:37 pm »

Just a FYI for everyone.  I have had zero problems since I changed my CAT5 to ProPlex Shielded CAT5e.  Since the test I have over 50 shows with ProPlex STP with Ethercon ends.  It's the only solution for me.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #245 on: January 30, 2014, 05:24:08 pm »

So I ran my first service on our new X32. 3rd time I've mixed on one.

We had two dropouts in 5 hours. Both were during speaking portions, didn't notice any drop outs during the worship set.

Currently using UTP with ethercon from the board to the first box, and unshielded with no ethercon box to box.

I guess whether we buy or not will depend on how annoyed people are with the drop outs.

The board and boxes are on different circuits. The board is connected to a UPS, the snakes are not. No idea how much, if at all, that is contributing to the issue. I can take the board off the UPS but have no way to put the board and snakes on the same circuit.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 05:27:17 pm by Jason Lucas »
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Rob Spence

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #246 on: January 30, 2014, 08:57:17 pm »

So I ran my first service on our new X32. 3rd time I've mixed on one.

We had two dropouts in 5 hours. Both were during speaking portions, didn't notice any drop outs during the worship set.

Currently using UTP with ethercon from the board to the first box, and unshielded with no ethercon box to box.

I guess whether we buy or not will depend on how annoyed people are with the drop outs.

The board and boxes are on different circuits. The board is connected to a UPS, the snakes are not. No idea how much, if at all, that is contributing to the issue. I can take the board off the UPS but have no way to put the board and snakes on the same circuit.

Sigh, Behringer has said over and over that STP with Ethercon is the only supported configuration.

Why not use the cable they spec?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Jason Lucas

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #247 on: January 30, 2014, 09:04:43 pm »

Sigh, Behringer has said over and over that STP with Ethercon is the only supported configuration.

Why not use the cable they spec?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Because we already had the UTP with ethercon, and the STP is $300. We were already almost over budget just getting the board and snakes.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 09:20:29 pm by Jason Lucas »
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Chris Clark

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #248 on: January 30, 2014, 09:25:37 pm »

What are the old adages? "Buy once, cry once?" Or would "The wrong equipment at the right price is still the wrong equipment" apply more here?

No offense, but you posted this as if you were surprised that the dropouts happened. It's pretty clear that this is a major risk of not using the proper cabling.
I was pretty sure some of the video tests in this thread indicated that it made no difference whether or not they were on the same circuit or not. I haven't paid too much attention when my S16s power up, but I'd imagine they take at least a few seconds to fully power up and resync - my guess would the the dropout if it were a power issue to the S16 would end up being even longer (or more drops in a short period as the S16 disconnects, X32 recovers with no connection, then drops again as the S16 reconnects) than the dropout caused by not using the proper interconnect cable and as such I would strongly recommend looking into a UPS for that end as well, even if it is an old one from someone's office that will only provide power for 10 seconds - all you're going to be able to do is try to hold the system up during very quick power inconsistencies, obviously if the power goes out completely for any longer than 1/2 a second your amps will drop too and it will be understandable that you need to wait for things to come back up before sound resumes, I think the congregation will understand. However dropouts in the middle of a service where nothing else is anomalous will either get you glares from everyone or put a bad reputation on the equipment even though you're technically using it out of spec.

On the flip side of this topic - We used our X32 and S16 all last summer and had absolutely no dropouts whatsoever using UTP/no ECs... (Obviously this was before this information had come out and was finally confirmed on using STP/ECs and the dangers of not doing so)... You can still bet your butt I'll be pushing to upgrade it properly because I'd rather know that I did everything to prevent dropouts even though they weren't happening vs letting it go and having the dropouts start later this year and then getting the bad rap from everyone about how the equipment is failling.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #249 on: January 30, 2014, 09:38:59 pm »

What are the old adages? "Buy once, cry once?" Or would "The wrong equipment at the right price is still the wrong equipment" apply more here?

No offense, but you posted this as if you were surprised that the dropouts happened. It's pretty clear that this is a major risk of not using the proper cabling.
I was pretty sure some of the video tests in this thread indicated that it made no difference whether or not they were on the same circuit or not. I haven't paid too much attention when my S16s power up, but I'd imagine they take at least a few seconds to fully power up and resync - my guess would the the dropout if it were a power issue to the S16 would end up being even longer (or more drops in a short period as the S16 disconnects, X32 recovers with no connection, then drops again as the S16 reconnects) than the dropout caused by not using the proper interconnect cable and as such I would strongly recommend looking into a UPS for that end as well, even if it is an old one from someone's office that will only provide power for 10 seconds - all you're going to be able to do is try to hold the system up during very quick power inconsistencies, obviously if the power goes out completely for any longer than 1/2 a second your amps will drop too and it will be understandable that you need to wait for things to come back up before sound resumes, I think the congregation will understand. However dropouts in the middle of a service where nothing else is anomalous will either get you glares from everyone or put a bad reputation on the equipment even though you're technically using it out of spec.

On the flip side of this topic - We used our X32 and S16 all last summer and had absolutely no dropouts whatsoever using UTP/no ECs... (Obviously this was before this information had come out and was finally confirmed on using STP/ECs and the dangers of not doing so)... You can still bet your butt I'll be pushing to upgrade it properly because I'd rather know that I did everything to prevent dropouts even though they weren't happening vs letting it go and having the dropouts start later this year and then getting the bad rap from everyone about how the equipment is failling.

Apparently I need to work on the way I word things so that I convey the proper tone.

I wasn't surprised, since we had the same issue when we demo'd the X32 a few months back. Plus, after reading this thread I expected it to happen. That said, I was hopeful that it might not be an issue, since there are a number of people using UTP with no issues.

I was actually surprised at how much less frequent the drop outs were than with the last X32 we used. As I said, only two in 5 hours.

I brought up that using the UTP might be an issue but they wanted to wait and see how bad it would be before dropping $300 on another cable when we already had one run under the slab.

So, time will tell whether or not this issue bothers anyone enough to bite the bullet on the shielded cable.
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