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Author Topic: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?  (Read 38463 times)

John Ng

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #220 on: January 20, 2014, 07:21:57 pm »

Thanks for the responses guys. I've actually read the whole thread, but skimmed some parts so thanks for the confirmation/summary anyways Corey :)

@Mark
Considering the guy who posted the 'official' response from Behringer suggested a ProCo cable, maybe it doesn't matter. We'll try to recrimp with the metal RJ45s if possible, but if we can't we'll see how things turn out.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #221 on: January 20, 2014, 11:07:28 pm »


...@Mark
Considering the guy who posted the 'official' response from Behringer suggested a ProCo cable, maybe it doesn't matter. We'll try to recrimp with the metal RJ45s if possible, but if we can't we'll see how things turn out.

I made a mistake last night posting, the open cable was a Rapco Duracat 150NN (6e) Ethercon cable, not ProCo.  I have edited my original post. I have no knowledge of the ProCo cables.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #222 on: January 20, 2014, 11:42:44 pm »

I made a mistake last night posting, the open cable was a Rapco Duracat 150NN (6e) Ethercon cable, not ProCo.  I have edited my original post. I have no knowledge of the ProCo cables.

I have the ProCo cable recommended by Joe Sanborn.  I haven't checked for backshell continuity yet, but I will.

We had a show a few days ago with band-provided FOH, that used a run of DuraCat6 w/Ethercon between their S16s and X32.  Cold, very low humidity, and 2 dropouts due to loss of sync.  They seemed to happen when a performer would cross the lovely oriental rug and go upstage to the Bitch Mic.

We also had a band-provided rig with Yammy CL3 at monitors, CL1 at FOH, iPad apps for both that ran on 5gHz RF, and gain-shared a single Rio 3216.  Sweet.  No drop outs or other anomalies.

At any rate I'll post back after I put a meter to the Ethercons...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 11:45:24 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Morgan Calma

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #223 on: January 22, 2014, 12:16:45 pm »

Hate to throw more problems in to this when it sounds like its figured out.
 I have and X32 with two S16 as an up-fit(one in the amp rack and one mobile)and started to have dropouts.  I was waiting on Behringer to spec a cable for reinstall the UTP to STP when I figured I would test with some production style STP to confirm others findings.  I found when using 150ft of ProPlex shielded (foil with drain) cable I could still cause the drop out via the electronic igniter from a lighter. 

My video is a bit poor but you can see all the import things
http://youtu.be/H_cTXA9kNvY

Things I found in my testing to try and avoid reinstall cable

-shocking my X32 I could not make the sync drop with any style cable/connector.   -using Behringer loop back test (connect port a and b of the same unit together) I could make the S16 drop with all cable/connectors but never made the x32 drop.
-Using Ferite beads to UTP is as effective as shielded cable with no ethercon.
-adding grounds and removing grounds changed nothing
-changing clock master to the s16 changed nothing
-adding a dn9610 into the mix changed nothing
-verified with a multi meter.... the ethecon makes a better connection from the shielding of STP to the chassis ground.

Given the way the s16 failed on me, I would be interested to know if you connect a Midas compatible rack to the x32 do you still have problems with UTP and/or STP?  Could the problem be all in the S16?
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Mac Kerr

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« Reply #224 on: January 22, 2014, 12:35:09 pm »

Hate to throw more problems in to this

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #225 on: January 22, 2014, 07:31:25 pm »

Hate to throw more problems in to this when it sounds like its figured out.
 I have and X32 with two S16 as an up-fit(one in the amp rack and one mobile)and started to have dropouts.  I was waiting on Behringer to spec a cable for reinstall the UTP to STP when I figured I would test with some production style STP to confirm others findings.  I found when using 150ft of ProPlex shielded (foil with drain) cable I could still cause the drop out via the electronic igniter from a lighter. 

My video is a bit poor but you can see all the import things
http://youtu.be/H_cTXA9kNvY

Things I found in my testing to try and avoid reinstall cable

-shocking my X32 I could not make the sync drop with any style cable/connector.   -using Behringer loop back test (connect port a and b of the same unit together) I could make the S16 drop with all cable/connectors but never made the x32 drop.
-Using Ferite beads to UTP is as effective as shielded cable with no ethercon.
-adding grounds and removing grounds changed nothing
-changing clock master to the s16 changed nothing
-adding a dn9610 into the mix changed nothing
-verified with a multi meter.... the ethecon makes a better connection from the shielding of STP to the chassis ground.


Thanks for posting this, Morgan. I have no ideas for you, but some questions:

1: How do you add ferrite beads to a UTP cable?

2: Since Brian earlier posted that an STP with no Ethercon is ineffective, does that mean the ferrite beads are equally ineffective?

3: Who put the connectors on the cable, and was it then tested to meet spec?

4: Were the dropouts happening to both the amp rack mounted S16 and the loose one? You only showed the loose one in the video.

Good luck,
Dan
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Morgan Calma

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #226 on: January 23, 2014, 09:52:18 am »


1: How do you add ferrite beads to a UTP cable?

-they are snap on style I had floating around.  For reference they have a KG logo and RFC-13 and the core measures 1.1in long with an ID 0.57in. wire wrap one time around with a loop about 3 to 4ins in the hope of not bring the cable out of spec.

2: Since Brian earlier posted that an STP with no Ethercon is ineffective, does that mean the ferrite beads are equally ineffective?

-the UTP with beads does not make it immune to drop outs so yes it is ineffective, but I did see an improvement in the ability to withstand ESD as seen with STP without ethercon.   My S16 drops on the first or second hit of the electron igniter on UTP, but I had to work harder to make it fail with the beads on the UTP.  It also synced back up faster then the plan UTP

3: Who put the connectors on the cable, and was it then tested to meet spec?
-I can not confirm who assembled the cable/connectors. cable was tested in other network devices, links with the X32/S16 and shield to shield, shell to shield and shell to shell all pass continuity test

4: Were the dropouts happening to both the amp rack mounted S16 and the loose one? You only showed the loose one in the video.
-the only one used in the test was the loose one.  the other unit was not connect at all.  I will test the one in the rack when I have some time to remove it and bring it closer.


unfortunately I will have a month long show using the x32 (no stage racks), so I don't know if I will have any more update. but I hope to try  S16 to S16, and a Midas pro rack soon.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2014, 10:39:49 pm »

-they are snap on style I had floating around.  For reference they have a KG logo and RFC-13 and the core measures 1.1in long with an ID 0.57in. wire wrap one time around with a loop about 3 to 4ins in the hope of not bring the cable out of spec.

-the UTP with beads does not make it immune to drop outs so yes it is ineffective, but I did see an improvement in the ability to withstand ESD as seen with STP without ethercon.   My S16 drops on the first or second hit of the electron igniter on UTP, but I had to work harder to make it fail with the beads on the UTP.  It also synced back up faster then the plan UTP

SNIP

Hi Morgan,

Hope your month-long show is going well, and thanks for this info.

Based on the glimmer of hope you offered here about ferrite beads, I asked my AES engineer buddies about the problem Saturday night at a gathering we had, and they said that yes, adding ferrite beads might fix the problem.

I got some of these     http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q94CJS/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1      , along with a large ferrite core that one of my friends happened to have there, and modified a BBQ sparker to provide the spark. That one is about half the size of my fist, with about an inch hole through it.

The cable is a Gepco Tactical Quad Ethernet cable (four CAT5e UTP with individual jackets, all inside a larger, thicker jacket). The four CAT5e's were prepared as follows:
- one with one ferrite bead on each end;
- one with two beads on each end;
- one with the large core on the S16 end and with the cable going through the core and then looping through again once (all that would fit through without taking off the Ethercon), with nothing on the console end since I only had one;
- no beads on the fourth one as the reference.

Cutting to the chase, all of them showed loss of sync, with the large cored cable taking a bit longer to do so and needing more of a hit to lose sync. But it still lost it.

Connecting a Proplex shielded version of the same thing, it didn't lose sync no matter how long you hit it with a spark (my BBQ thing is battery powered and sparks as long as you hold the trigger).

Rats. I don't see any hope here for using existing UTP. As I said earlier itt, the quad Proplex is much too stiff and unwieldy to use, at least in my scheme of things, and I feel the need for redundant cable runs so that a quad cable is perfect. The Gepco doesn't come in STP, and I haven't found any besides the Proplex.

Phooey.
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Brian Wynn

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2014, 11:29:11 pm »

Hi Morgan,

Hope your month-long show is going well, and thanks for this info.

Based on the glimmer of hope you offered here about ferrite beads, I asked my AES engineer buddies about the problem Saturday night at a gathering we had, and they said that yes, adding ferrite beads might fix the problem.

I got some of these     http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q94CJS/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1      , along with a large ferrite core that one of my friends happened to have there, and modified a BBQ sparker to provide the spark. That one is about half the size of my fist, with about an inch hole through it.

The cable is a Gepco Tactical Quad Ethernet cable (four CAT5e UTP with individual jackets, all inside a larger, thicker jacket). The four CAT5e's were prepared as follows:
- one with one ferrite bead on each end;
- one with two beads on each end;
- one with the large core on the S16 end and with the cable going through the core and then looping through again once (all that would fit through without taking off the Ethercon), with nothing on the console end since I only had one;
- no beads on the fourth one as the reference.

Cutting to the chase, all of them showed loss of sync, with the large cored cable taking a bit longer to do so and needing more of a hit to lose sync. But it still lost it.

Connecting a Proplex shielded version of the same thing, it didn't lose sync no matter how long you hit it with a spark (my BBQ thing is battery powered and sparks as long as you hold the trigger).

Rats. I don't see any hope here for using existing UTP. As I said earlier itt, the quad Proplex is much too stiff and unwieldy to use, at least in my scheme of things, and I feel the need for redundant cable runs so that a quad cable is perfect. The Gepco doesn't come in STP, and I haven't found any besides the Proplex.

Phooey.

I'm glad that my results are being duplicated.  Shielded is the ONLY way to go.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #229 on: January 28, 2014, 01:45:40 am »

I'm glad that my results are being duplicated.  Shielded is the ONLY way to go.

While I'm sure it's pleasing to be confirmed in your findings, I am hoping for a loophole that seems to not exist. I hope you don't blame me for that....

I WANT to believe!!! And make my own reality.
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