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Author Topic: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?  (Read 28197 times)

Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #200 on: December 08, 2013, 04:02:56 am »

+1

To Mr  Mortensen : Maybe the AES should anticipate the SPCA's (Society for the Protection against Cable Abuse) reaction to their shocking photo's!   ;D

Hi Simon,

Thanks for the comment; yes, those pics were chosen for their shock value. Nothing with feelings was injured in our workshop...
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Corey Scogin

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #201 on: December 08, 2013, 12:02:57 pm »

The ProPlex I got is the 4 banger, not the single run. The individual runs (the splayed ends of the 4 banger) seem flexible enough, it's the overall jacket that's stiff stiff stiff.

Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.
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Brian Wynn

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #202 on: December 08, 2013, 06:25:25 pm »

Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.

Im a TMB dealer if you need quote.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #203 on: December 08, 2013, 10:19:40 pm »

Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.

Rapco dealers can order the ProCo product mentioned by Joe Sandborn.  Lead time is typically 3 business days.
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Corey Scogin

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #204 on: December 08, 2013, 10:55:33 pm »

Rapco dealers can order the ProCo product mentioned by Joe Sandborn.  Lead time is typically 3 business days.

I bought an assembly of the Rapco/ProCo.  The cable is Belden 1533R.  It holds any bends you happen to put in it.  Not great for a cable that needs to lie down well.  That's why I'm looking for other options.

*edit: I ended up getting some TMB ProPlex.  It's the best STP cable I've come across for stage use.  It's a little bit large and difficult to terminate but makes a good solid connection once you get the jacket and braided shield into the connector.  There's a good tutorial on YouTube with tips on how best to work the jacket into the connector.  I'd recommend getting pre-terminated assemblies if possible.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:14:27 pm by Corey Scogin »
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Corey Scogin

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #205 on: December 17, 2013, 12:36:10 am »

This is the thread that never ends.

Until last night, I had only used my X32 Compact with the S16 once other than in testing.  Last night I used it for a Christmas event at my church where we needed more inputs than our Qu-16 could handle.  All went well EXCEPT for a few loud pops / noises before and after the performance. 

The setup consisted of 16 channels via analog snake into local X32 inputs + 16 channels from 1 of 2 S16's racked in a flight case.  The S16 was connected with a 50ft shielded CAT5e direct burial cable ran along the hardwood floor from the mix position underneath a seating area.  I was using a moderately inexpensive shielded direct burial cable with Ethercons because I hadn't had time to terminate the ProPlex cable I received last week.  The cable has a foil shield with a drain wire similar to the ProCo cables recommended by Behringer.  The drain wire is soldered to the RJ45 metal casing.

Luckily, the pops didn't happen during the performance.  I am not entirely sure but I think the issue was caused by the cable getting stepped on by audience members.  The first time it happened, I don't recall anyone being near the cable run but I could be mistaken.  This behavior is similar to what Dan Mortensen and others were trying to troubleshoot near the beginning of this thread.  I am uncertain if the noise was caused by the S16 disconnecting since I was unable to get a look at the console screen before things were back to normal but I suspect it did drop out.

Using the same cable as last night, I successfully recreated a similar dropout / pop at home by pinching it with a pair of pliers.  After pinching 6 or 8 locations on the cable, the S16/X32 finally lost connection.  As long as I squeezed the cable, the X32/S16 would stay disconnected but appear to try to reconnect now and then.  I continued pinching in different locations for a while and was only able to cause disconnection 1 out of about 15 pinches.  The pop that occurred live wasn't exactly like the one at home but that could be because I don't have 26 mics or DI's plugged into the console at home, only one mic on the S16. 

Using the same cable I used last night, I tried shocking the S16 with a lighter igniter to simulate static discharge.  It did not drop out at all.  Using an unshielded cable previously, I have made the connection drop quite quickly using the same method.

It seems to me that there are two issues at play with the X32/S16 connection.  The first and most easily repeatable by me is the static discharge issue when using unshielded cable or cable without Ethercons.  The second is the issue of physical movement of the cable causing a loss of connection between the systems.  It is unfortunate that this console/stage box setup is so sensitive to these things but I have confidence that a heavier cable that holds the pairs in place better may not have any issues.  I will be using the TMB ProPlex henceforth and will report any problems if they arise.  I suspect that the ProPlex with it's kevlar filler and braided shield will do a good enough job of satisfying the X32/S16 connection requirements.

For any interested, here's a link to the multitrack recording of one of the dropouts from last night.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8899207/2013-12-16_X32_S16_Dropout_Example.zip
There is some obvious digital crap happening on most, but not all, of the S16 connected channels (17-29).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:42:39 am by Corey Scogin »
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Mike Pyle

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #206 on: December 17, 2013, 11:44:04 am »

Regarding Proplex, I'll mention that the distributor is very responsive about filling orders. In my experience bulk wire orders get dropshipped the same day if they are received early enough, and finished cable assemblies usually the next day. If you don't have the tools, or just don't like terminating ethernet cable (like me), the cost for finished assemblies with ethercons is about $20 more than the wire alone.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #207 on: December 17, 2013, 02:15:44 pm »

This is the thread that never ends.

Until last night, I had only used my X32 Compact with the S16 once other than in testing.  Last night I used it for a Christmas event at my church where we needed more inputs than our Qu-16 could handle.  All went well EXCEPT for a few loud pops / noises before and after the performance. 

...

Luckily, the pops didn't happen during the performance.  I am not entirely sure but I think the issue was caused by the cable getting stepped on by audience members.  The first time it happened, I don't recall anyone being near the cable run but I could be mistaken.  This behavior is similar to what Dan Mortensen and others were trying to troubleshoot near the beginning of this thread.  I am uncertain if the noise was caused by the S16 disconnecting since I was unable to get a look at the console screen before things were back to normal but I suspect it did drop out.

Using the same cable as last night, I successfully recreated a similar dropout / pop at home by pinching it with a pair of pliers.  After pinching 6 or 8 locations on the cable, the S16/X32 finally lost connection.  As long as I squeezed the cable, the X32/S16 would stay disconnected but appear to try to reconnect now and then.  I continued pinching in different locations for a while and was only able to cause disconnection 1 out of about 15 pinches.  The pop that occurred live wasn't exactly like the one at home but that could be because I don't have 26 mics or DI's plugged into the console at home, only one mic on the S16. 

Hi Corey,

This does sound similar to one of the two problems we and I were able to create. The first one, which initiated my interest in the subject, was due to a simultaneous pulling and squeezing on an Ethernet cable. Stopping the pulling but maintaining the squeezing ended the problem, starting the pulling (not using a huge force BTW) started it again. The second was at our workshop using a very large force and either stomping on or squeezing while pulling the cable. The first one, I could maintain the disruption as long as there was cable movement, the second (stomping or squeezing/pulling) was only momentary. We weren't able to generate any duration.



It seems to me that there are two issues at play with the X32/S16 connection.  The first and most easily repeatable by me is the static discharge issue when using unshielded cable or cable without Ethercons.  The second is the issue of physical movement of the cable causing a loss of connection between the systems.  It is unfortunate that this console/stage box setup is so sensitive to these things but I have confidence that a heavier cable that holds the pairs in place better may not have any issues.

I feel the same way, with the addition that "holds the pairs in place better" means that the pairs are either farther apart (via spacers or some kind of filler material like the Gepco which encases each pair in a block of stuff so they can't move relative to each other), or there is some kind of additional bulk like a second jacket (ala the quad Ethernet cable assemblies) around the individual Ethernet cable that prevents distension in the twisted pair relationships. Bonding the wires within each individual pairs does not seem to do it, as the original cable that showed me the problem was a Belden with bonded pairs but a very thin overall jacket.

I don't know if a shield alone is sufficient to avoid the problem; your experience is saying "no".


For any interested, here's a link to the multitrack recording of one of the dropouts from last night.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8899207/2013-12-16_X32_S16_Dropout_Example.zip
There is some obvious digital crap happening on most, but not all, of the S16 connected channels (17-29).

Just to be sure that what you intended to send is what I'm hearing, there seem to be 29 examples, each 5 seconds long. Most of them are the same, with a guy saying something and laughing, ending with "not dirty" or something like that, one has a guy saying "what IS that?", the rest are either quiet or quiet with a disruption at the same point as all the rest.

It's interesting that all tracks don't have the same disruption, and that the disruption doesn't sound exactly the same on each track.

There are only some that have the same duration of white noise as the others, the rest sound kind of like a rim shot on the side of a drum to me. The ones with the white noise (20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29) sound a little different one to another, but are the most similar to what I heard originally. FWIW.

Why don't they all sound the same?

Thanks for this, Corey. I really feel like we are a little closer to figuring this out.

Dan
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Corey Scogin

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #208 on: December 17, 2013, 04:21:31 pm »

Just to be sure that what you intended to send is what I'm hearing, there seem to be 29 examples, each 5 seconds long. Most of them are the same, with a guy saying something and laughing, ending with "not dirty" or something like that, one has a guy saying "what IS that?", the rest are either quiet or quiet with a disruption at the same point as all the rest.

...

There are only some that have the same duration of white noise as the others, the rest sound kind of like a rim shot on the side of a drum to me. The ones with the white noise (20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29) sound a little different one to another, but are the most similar to what I heard originally. FWIW.

Why don't they all sound the same?


Yes, 29 tracks, 5 seconds in length represent tracks 1-29 from the X32.  Tracks 1-16 were analog inputs onboard the X32 Compact, tracks 17-29 were from the S16 (I didn't record tracks 30-32 because I wasn't using them).  Many of the tracks have mics plugged in, some have DI's.  The trailing sound is the remnant of the noise through the house and the monitors.  Some mics picked it up more than others.  This 5 second section occurred a few minutes after the performance concluded when people were milling around and talking.

Here's the input list for the linked wav files:
Code: [Select]
Analog snake to onboard inputs
1  Kick mic
2  TR mic
3  TF mic
4  OH mic
5  Bass DI
6  EG mic
7  EG mic
8  Kurzweil DI
9  Nord L DI
10 Nord R DI
11 --
12 --
13 --
14 Vocal USR mic
15 Vocal USC mic
16 --

Digital snake inputs from S16
17 AG SR DI
18 AG SL DI
19 Aux Instr mic
20 --
21 Lecturn mic
22 Vocal DSR mic
23 Vocal DSC mic
24 Vocal DSL mic
25 --
26 --
27 Choir mic
28 Choir mic
29 Piano mic

It's interesting to note that when looking at the waveform of the noise, it varies from track to track with some tracks without noise.  None of the onboard analog inputs had this digital noise, only the S16 ones.  The waveforms seems to randomly jump from -inf (0?) to a fixed positive value.  Every track appears to jump between -inf and the same value but I haven't checked to see if it's actually the same value or just close.  Not all of the digital noise starts at the same point but most do.  That may be due to input buffering on the console?

« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:23:47 pm by Corey Scogin »
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Randall Cook

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Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2014, 11:49:46 pm »

I've read through this entire post and others.  I have yet to see a definitive answer on whether to use SHIELDED or UNshielded cat5e cable for use with the X32 system (or any other system).

I am currently using an X32 with a single S16.  I'd like to use an additional S16 in the near future.

I've used this system on about 12-15 events recently with same gear setup each time, several different venues.  During setup at the last event, we all heard a loud pop.  We couldn't figure out where it came from.  After playing a half an hours worth of pre-show iPod music, the band went on and during the first song, all sound dropped out without warning.

It was the snake (cat5e cable).  We quickly ran an analog snake and were back on.

I always run the cat5e with an XLR mic cable for DMX control of the lighting.  Every once in a while, I also run an AC cable with them.

The cat5e i have been using is 250' and it does NOT have neutrik or locking ends, just the standard RJ45.  It is UTP.

This was the first time I'd heard the noise/pop and had any issues with this system.

Is this an issue with the cable?  If so, do I need UTP or STP?  Neutrik locking?

If so, best place you recommend for the cable with ends terminated at 250'?

Thank you!
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