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[John Heinz]

See link
http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

Thanks for the link. Was hoping to see a Powersoft K10 on the list. Interesting comments about the IT12000HD, kinda what we have known all along. Never paid much attention to the Speakerpower Amps, but maybe I should.

Doug, my apologies, the Ipod comment was not directed towards you, just my experience with a lot of touring enginners that are to focused on the wrong end of the horse. The speaker system and it's deployment are still the weakest link.

John Heinz
Concert Quality

[Doug Fowler]

See link
http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

Thanks for the link. Was hoping to see a Powersoft K10 on the list. Interesting comments about the IT12000HD, kinda what we have known all along. Never paid much attention to the Speakerpower Amps, but maybe I should.

Doug, my apologies, the Ipod comment was not directed towards you, just my experience with a lot of touring enginners that are to focused on the wrong end of the horse. The speaker system and it's deployment are still the weakest link.

John Heinz
Concert Quality

John, no worries, I didn't take it that way.  I just wanted to point out it is possible to use a portable if the "proper" precautions are taken. 

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find CD players in system drive racks nowadays :-)

[Doug Fowler]

I agree that subs can reach lower end frequencies nowadays. We should not forget the time domain, how do they reproduce the audio material? Is a bass note really just a note or do we end up with a bass "carpet"? There is still a long way to go imho.

Gesendet von meinem HTC Vision mit Tapatalk 2

Particularly for large systems, the amount of delay required to make the electronic arc and spread the signal is detrimental. This, combined with the width of the sub array, puts us squarely in compromise territory.

Imagine, audio compromises. Who knew? ;

I would like to see impulse responses and phase / group delay data for subs. 

[Doug Fowler]

Doug,
Could you detail the deployment of the subs at the three systems you identified? Flown, L-R under an array hang, center clustered?

Thanks!

db audiotechnik: 24x Infras, 24 J stretched out across the downstage edge. Js stacked on Infras.  It had to easily be 100' wide

JBL: 3x subs at top of each flown array, 8 in the center, maybe 6 arrayed together out on the sides.  This stage has to contend with a 5' deep moat in front of the arced stage, with subs standing on platforms in the moat.  Acoustically, this one is a crap shoot each year.   Search for Klipsch Amphitheater or Bayfront Park in your map application, I think you should be able to see the moat.

BASSMAXX: block of 8 wide, 2 high, with some Z5D upper bass boxes, making this on a split sub system, as was the db audiotechnik solution.

[Art Welter]

All that, and the fact that if you have that super deep LF extension, the stuff that is an octave higher is being reproduced almost effortlessly.

In most sub designs other than sealed (which are too inefficient for loud live low frequency production) excursion is least near the low corner and around an octave above, but somewhere in the middle, usually about 1/3 to half octave up, excursion is at maximum.

A sub with a 30 Hz Fb/Fc will often produce the most distortion around 40 Hz, second harmonic is 80, third, 120 Hz.

If the Fb/Fc is around 50 Hz, the worst "gack" will be 60 and 180 Hz, high enough to be easily noticed even if high passed at around 45 Hz.

Best to choose the subs for the genre, going loud an octave lower can double to quadruple the power and cabinet size requirements.

Things have not been the same since just about every bassist went from having a Low E (41Hz), to a low B (31 Hz).
Now digital recording allow frequencies down to a few Hz, back in the days of vinyl, DJs were hard pressed to get anything very loud below 50 Hz due to the medium's limitation and feedback.

[Doug Fowler]

In most sub designs other than sealed (which are too inefficient for loud live low frequency production) excursion is least near the low corner and around an octave above, but somewhere in the middle, usually about 1/3 to half octave up, excursion is at maximum.

A sub with a 30 Hz Fb/Fc will often produce the most distortion around 40 Hz, second harmonic is 80, third, 120 Hz.

If the Fb/Fc is around 50 Hz, the worst "gack" will be 60 and 180 Hz, high enough to be easily noticed even if high passed at around 45 Hz.

Best to choose the subs for the genre, going loud an octave lower can double to quadruple the power and cabinet size requirements.

Things have not been the same since just about every bassist went from having a Low E (41Hz), to a low B (31 Hz).
Now digital recording allow frequencies down to a few Hz, back in the days of vinyl, DJs were hard pressed to get anything very loud below 50 Hz due to the medium's limitation and feedback.

Good point about vinyl, and no doubt a significant contributor to the 50 Hz thing.

[Ivan Beaver]

Particularly for large systems, the amount of delay required to make the electronic arc and spread the signal is detrimental. This, combined with the width of the sub array, puts us squarely in compromise territory.

Imagine, audio compromises. Who knew? ;

I would like to see impulse responses and phase / group delay data for subs.

This is something that is very often overlooked.

SURE-you can do "fancy" sub setups with physical layouts-electronic delays and such to get a nice smooth bass coverage pattern.

But at some point you are going to have to have to match up the subs with the full range cabinets.  That is where the delay associated with getting nice bass coverage is going to start screwing with you.  NOW you are all out of whack with the  mains. 

So you try to get it right on the areas on the outside of the subs and the mains-but because of the wide stage-you need to get fills in for the middle-and that becomes a problem and so forth and so on.

You are correct-at this level it is all about compromise-and what is good for somebody is bad for somebody else.

So you figure what is best for either the majority of the people-OR the person paying you or some other reason.

Whenever you have multiple loudspeakers it is about compromise.  And not everybody agrees on the compromise.

It goes from being in the "scientific" realm and into the "art" realm.

[paul bell]

Maybe we're finally on the way to satisfying those 70's & 80's tech riders that required "sound system capable or reproducing 20 to 20 KHz at all listening locations in the venue"

[Ivan Beaver]

Good point about vinyl, and no doubt a significant contributor to the 50 Hz thing.

Another thing with vinyl is that often songs with deeper bass were put on the outside tracks.  That is because the arm would track straighter on the larger circles.  The needle had a better chance of staying in the groove.

[Marjan Milosevic]

No mentioning on the Void rig there.

[ProSoundWeb Community]